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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Veresov: Refutation? (Read 27600 times)
Bonsai
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #9 - 07/27/08 at 11:32:35
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Indeed, otherwise I'll have to start playing e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.a3 from now onwards in order to find some vaguely useful waiting move and turn this into this super-favourable situation you are talking about JN.  Wink

Quite honestly looking at it from a Chigorin perspective, white is hardly going to be worse after 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 c5 4.Bxf6 gxf6 5.e3 or 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.e3 Bg4 Be2 or the like. It's hardly exciting stuff and I would want to aim for something more promising as white, but I don't think white has to be too worried.
  
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TimS
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #8 - 07/27/08 at 10:09:07
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JN wrote on 07/27/08 at 07:57:48:
Hmmm... just found out that 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 c5  is also recommended by John Cox in his Dealing with d4 Deviations. Guess I will have to give up the idea about using the Veresov as a reliable, yet narrow, white rep. White seems to be (at least a bit) worse in all lines after 3.- c5!

If so, then the Chigorin must be busted as White is essentially playing it with an extra tempo
  
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JN
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #7 - 07/27/08 at 07:57:48
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Hmmm... just found out that 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 c5  is also recommended by John Cox in his Dealing with d4 Deviations. Guess I will have to give up the idea about using the Veresov as a reliable, yet narrow, white rep. White seems to be (at least a bit) worse in all lines after 3.- c5!
  
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Matemax
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #6 - 07/19/08 at 10:11:22
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Playing Nc3 before c4 is probably strategical dubios in d-pawn openings. Therefore Black should theoretically be OK - but this doesnt hinder you to surprise your opponents with some fancy Veresov-lines. 

Catch the (black) fish by surprise but dont always try to catch him this way  Wink
  
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JN
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #5 - 07/19/08 at 10:02:26
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Quote:
gxf6 is the move. For this I recommend e4 but I would research if nf3 or e3 is a better try.


5. e4 is probably not white's best. It seems that black has a tiny plus after 5. - dxe4 6. dxc5 and now f5 instead of the often played Qa5. Looks like black is ok or even a little bit better in the f5-line. 

5. Nf3 Nc6 is analyzed by Davies and seems to be good for white after 6. e4! However 5. - e5! is much better than Nc6 and white has really nothing.

5. e3 is probably white's best, but nevertheless dead equal.

  
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trw
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #4 - 07/18/08 at 23:16:51
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I agree with the previous posters and would add some things that will calm your fear about c5.

I've only played the Verseov three times and two times i've played c5 because it seemed like the best move. In fact, I now am prepared to actually play c5 but the first two times I was not.

Example: d4 d5 nc3 nf6 Bg5 c5 Bxf6 (most of the time at the amateur level you are going to see exf6 where both sides have an easy but equal game if not slight edge to white) however gxf6 is the move. For this I recommend e4 but I would research if nf3 or e3 is a better try.
  
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Bonsai
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #3 - 07/18/08 at 22:48:43
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I fully agree with the previous posters. Come on, essentially white is playing the Chigorin line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 a tempo up - it is as if black was allowed to move again in that Chigorin line! Of course white has the typical slight edge/initiative thing that he gets in any opening, so I guess the question is just what that extra tempo is worth. But surely it should mean that white it is at least equal in the Veresov?
  
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dmp4373
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #2 - 07/18/08 at 14:19:30
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"So what's holding me back?"

Perhaps your expectations for White. If you're going to play d-pawn Specials openings you'd better get used Black equalizing early and often. But at the non-professional level - so what!

d-pawn Specials are about playing the types of middlegames you like with the advantage of having more experience with them than your opponent and needing less theoretical study to play them well. They're for amateur players not searching for some ultimate truth in chess.
  
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Matemax
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Re: Veresov: Refutation?
Reply #1 - 07/18/08 at 09:46:45
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1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5

White has developed 2 pieces and made no bigger mistake (perhaps a small one to obstructe the c-pawn) - there is certainly no refutation in sight. Perhaps you should ask about the most promising line for Black - but this also depends on what Black wants: - fast equalizing, - a save game, - good counterchances (but perhaps risky)  Smiley
  
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JN
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Veresov: Refutation?
07/18/08 at 09:09:04
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How to build a fairly narrow but yet reliable white repertoire? The Veresov may be it. I have been thinking about giving it a try for some time now. I even bought the two books by Smith/Hall and Davies (the latter is by far the best of them). So what is holding me back? Primarily one line that seems impossible to crack. The line in question goes: 1. d4 d5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 c5(!). Is it just me being too pessimistic about white's chances in this line or is 3.- c5 simply the refutation of the Veresov?
  
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