Normal Topic 2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P (Read 3683 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: 2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P
Reply #5 - 08/01/08 at 07:17:42
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Thanks for the diagram, Willempie!

I've only had a brief look at the position and haven't found a win from the first position yet.  This is challenging!

Thanks, HgMan, for sharing this thought-provoking position.

You asked if endgame principles can help provide an answer.  I think concrete analysis will be the final proof, and while principles will provide certain guideposts, we're mostly on our own.  Principles are usually applied to such positions *after* they've been solved.
Shocked
  
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Willempie
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Re: 2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P
Reply #4 - 07/24/08 at 09:48:34
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IMJohnCox wrote on 07/21/08 at 13:05:14:
It would be helpful if anyone could do that clever diagram thing...?

Here it goes
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* * * * * * * *
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*
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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HgMan
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Re: 2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P
Reply #3 - 07/22/08 at 12:24:40
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The following moves:  43.Kf2 Nd5 44.Kg3 Nb4 45.h3 Nc6 46.f4 gxf4+ 47.Bxf4 Ke4 48.Bd6 Kd5 49.Bf8 Ne5 50.Bg7 Nd3 51.Kh4 Nxc5 52.a5 Ke4 53.Kh5 Ne6 54.Kh6 1/2-1/2

So the exchange of the g5-pawn is a mistake on White's part?  My every instinct was that White should be winning (I offered the draw because my opponent was short on time and I thought I might be able to hold), but I don't see how the White king advances; can't the knight keep the queenside in check?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Sacapawn
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Re: 2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P
Reply #2 - 07/22/08 at 08:45:15
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The second position is probably won for White. The general ideas are:
- walk with the king to b6 and try to win the b7 pawn, alternatively exchange one pawn and promote the other
- if Black tries to stop this White can attack the g5 pawn with his bishop
- Black can play the K to d5 and win the c5 pawn with Na6-c5 but then White wins the g5 pawn with the bishop and has a passed f pawn.
Black might have some ingenious defence against this, but I haven't seen any.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: 2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P
Reply #1 - 07/21/08 at 13:05:14
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Well, nothing like making a fool of yourself blindfold with very little thought - I would find it educational, shall we say, if the second position is truly drawn. But then I frequently find things educational. I'll try and have a play with it and post something more considered.

It would be helpful if anyone could do that clever diagram thing...?

  
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HgMan
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2B + 5P vs. BN + 5/4P
07/20/08 at 01:44:55
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Following on from Smyslov_Fan's request in another thread for more positions to analyze, I submit the following, not just because I found it rather interesting, but to inquire as to whether endgame principles can help determine the outcome:

W: Kg1, Bb5, Bd6, a3, c4, f3, g2, h2
B: Kf7, Bh5, Nd3, b7, e6, f5, g5, h7

Black (me) to play.  Play continued: 36...e5 37.c5 e4 38.Bd7 exf3 39.Bxf5 Bg6 40.Bxg6+ Kxg6 41.a4 Nb4 42.gxf3 Kf5.  Somewhere around here, I offered a draw.  I felt that although White had the strong bishop and the pawn majority on the queenside (and the fact that I was a pawn down), I couldn't see any method of getting a pawn past the post for White.  It seems to me that if White wants to include his king in the attack, he needs to give up one of those pawns.  White continued for another dozen moves along a line I had not anticipated, before offering a draw, which I accepted.   

Two questions: 1). Is the initial position drawn?  2). Is the position where I made the draw offer drawn?  I'm not so sure in either case...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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