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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Openings and Rating (Read 7778 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #17 - 08/03/08 at 18:58:12
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It seems that there is an impression that one either plays a variety of openings or sticks to one or two main lines. Period.

I recommend to my students that they play everything, especially the opposite side of their favorite openings, in casual and blitz games.  They maintain their opening repertoire and expand it as they get more comfortable with the openings through experience in these casual games.

In other words, you can have the best of both worlds:  you can reach for universality in your chess understanding *and* have a good solid repertoire for competitive games.  

The main reason this doesn't work for some people is that they don't consider any game casual, and therefore are never willing to experiment.  Perhaps if you work very hard against your computer opponents (Fritz, and company), you could begin to achieve a similar feel for the openings in question.  

The main problem with trusting only in your computer is that Fritz (or even Rybka) doesn't play the openings the way humans do.  You would only be able to program in "human" moves if you know what humans are likely to play.  Which leads us back to casual games and to studying the great games of strong players.
  
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #16 - 08/02/08 at 12:06:24
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exigentsky wrote on 07/31/08 at 19:58:38:
I'm starting to think that broadening my repertoire, at least for a while would be good chess education and help me play more varied positions better but not that it would help my results any in the short-run.

You may get pleasantly surprised. It has a lot to do with confidence. If you play a new position you may become uncertain, but you may also see it as a challenge and get more concentrated. When your opening then goes quite well you can literally feel your confidence growing.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #15 - 08/02/08 at 02:53:11
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Not really related to the original poster's question, but an interesting observation:

I once read somewhere about Ivan Solokov saying something to the effect that if a 2400 player does not push hard with White and plays solid chess, it is almost impossible to beat him with Black. (was this in a Rowson book!?) Okay Ivan has a classical repertoire (1. e4 e5, 1. d4 d5) repertoire so maybe thats the case?! But it does seem to me that some openings become less and less playable in must-win situations as I got better. My beloved Caro-Kann seems like one example.
  
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #14 - 08/02/08 at 02:20:26
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exigentsky wrote on 07/29/08 at 23:11:51:
The reason I ask is mainly because I lack the confidence to play some interesting moves when I know little theory and have little practical experience. Even upon having reasonable theoretical knowledge, it's hard for me to decide to play a move I've only tested in low quality blitz games. For example, I want to try 1. e4 in addition to 1. d4 but have rarely played it OTB and am afraid that someone who has good experience and more theory will have a big advantage. This is even more true since I don't want to shy away form the most complicated and ambitious lines. I'm still progressing and I don't like the idea of sacrificing 100 ELO for a new move. Has anyone else been in this situation and if so how did you deal with it?


You go for it.   

You take some lumps at first.  But as you become familiar with your new systems, you get better.   


  
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #13 - 08/01/08 at 05:18:42
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I must point that playing a variety of openings to get used to the different types of middle games and the endgames they usually lead to is always a good idea. This will help you no matter what opening you prepare for.

Look at it like this, you study and you study and you study your pet opening line. How often do you get to employ that knowledge? The few times you even get to play your line... your opponent could deviate quite early! There might not even be a way to directly punish him tactically or positionally... it might just be a move that intends to head to straight equality and try for no advantage. In this case... your overall middlegame/endgame knowledge are going to be the deciding factors... so in essence I agree with willieempire I just wanted to give another argument leading to the same conclusion.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #12 - 08/01/08 at 01:37:46
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exigentsky wrote on 07/31/08 at 19:58:38:
I've rarely played the same person twice and I've always had only a few minutes notice regarding who I would play.


In that case you don't know if your opponent is an expert on his opening; neither does (s)he have a clue about your dangerous ideas against his pet-defence. So you should stop worrying about Black knowing his stuff better than you anyway.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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exigentsky
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #11 - 07/31/08 at 19:58:38
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I've rarely played the same person twice and I've always had only a few minutes notice regarding who I would play. Even if I had more time, most of my opponents would not have games in the database. Thus, I think this idea of being unpredictable starts to matter at master level but not really at Class A. Are you talking about master level?

Moreover, don't people already have a good handle on 1. e4 and 1. d4? It's not like I'm surprising them with either move. Maybe if I played 1. b4... but these are standard moves and I can't imagine my opponents being too worried immediately. Unless I have detailed knowledge of their repertoire (and they don't alternate) and find a hole, what is the advantage? Plus, even if I have a bit more variety, specialization might really overcome any advantage. Fischer didn't vary his openings a great deal, but he was so good and knowledgeable in the Najdorf and Spanish that it hardly mattered.

I'm starting to think that broadening my repertoire, at least for a while would be good chess education and help me play more varied positions better but not that it would help my results any in the short-run.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #10 - 07/31/08 at 02:16:05
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The disadvantage of somewhat more superficial knowledge as White (which is not that big indeed, as pointed out by Willempie) is fully compensated by bigger inpredictability.
Suppose you know your opponent and he knows you. If you vary 1.d4 with 1.e4 he has a harder time to prepare his game. If he is an expert on two defences (against 1.d4 and 1.e4) you will be the one knowing what to expect! And this happens more often than you seem to think - I have this experience from both sides of the board. That's why I dare to say that broadening your repertoire as White will make up or even more for Black's eventual experience.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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Willempie
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #9 - 07/30/08 at 08:41:55
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exigentsky wrote on 07/30/08 at 03:45:49:
That's good advice. Still, I hope that it won't take me more than six months to add e4. OTB play is not at the same standard as CC and I do have some rudimentary knowledge of e4 already. The more difficult decision will be whether to stick with d4 or switch to e4? I know some people say that there is no need to pick at all, but this must seriously compromise one's ability to be a true expert in a particular opening.

I disagree with the latter part. 
Firstly even if you pick a first move you wont become a true expert. Experts tend to be on the black side below 2300. Ie someone playing the French as black can become an expert in that opening, but playing 1.e4 wont make you an expert in any line as you dont meet them enough. Even if say half your 1.e4 games end up in an open sicilian, you will still meet Najdorfs, Dragons, Sveshnis and all kinds of other lines. In general black tends to choose the type of pawn structure, while white only has limited choices in which lines to play. 
Secondly a broad knowledge serves me (I am talking about myself as I tend to know myself a little better than most) better than "expert" knowledge in the opening. With very few exceptions a decent looking move in the opening is not going to get your game killed. On the other hand it will allow you to apply other ideas, which is especially valuable in the early middlegame.
Lastly expert knowledge is overrated. Spassky got creamed by Fischer and Karpov when they varied their openings in their matches. Kasparov was/is an expert in the Tarrasch and Grunfeld, yet he got into big trouble against Karpov with it, while Kramnik showed that his expert knowledge of the Spanish wont win you games.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #8 - 07/30/08 at 05:38:56
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If you want to play 1.e4, but are worried that you won't know the theory as well as the opponent, then there are ways of steering the game away from theoretical channels.

For example, you are worried that your opponent, a life-long French devotee, will know and understand the Winawer variation much better than you. So surprise him with 2.Qe2 or 2.d4 d5 3.Bd3 - you won't get more than a tiny edge out of the opening, if that - but you will eliminate the supposed 'advantage' of the opponent's superior understanding.

Or say that you want to play an Open Sicilian, but are scared of your opponent's Najdorf. Play (instead of 5.Nc3) 5.Bd3 followed by c4, reaching a Maroczy Bind position that your opponent may not be familiar with.

Still, there is no need to be terrified of your opponent's knowledge of theory. If you are a decent player you should be able to play some reasonable moves on your own accord.



  

What does author X say about this move? Why doesn't author Y mention that move?
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exigentsky
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #7 - 07/30/08 at 03:45:49
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That's good advice. Still, I hope that it won't take me more than six months to add e4. OTB play is not at the same standard as CC and I do have some rudimentary knowledge of e4 already. The more difficult decision will be whether to stick with d4 or switch to e4? I know some people say that there is no need to pick at all, but this must seriously compromise one's ability to be a true expert in a particular opening.
  
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MNb
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #6 - 07/30/08 at 02:45:48
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/29/08 at 19:16:37:

Ratings reflect our entire knowledge of the game.

I fully agree and therefor tend to judge Exig's question to be unanswerable and maybe even irrelevant. ELO is simply not designed to measure knowledge of opening theory.
So let me try another perspective. If you want to try 1.e4 now and then make sure you know the stuff you are playing and feel confident about it. In the beginning pick an opponent who is somewhat weaker, but not that much (I once tried 1.f4 against someone rated more than 200 points lower than me and lost miserably  Embarrassed). Also don't do it when there is a lot at stake.
Concerning ELO: don't worry too much about it. You won't lose 100 points because of just one game; after such an experience you can always return to 1.d4 for the next few games.
Oh, and take your time. It took me three years to switch from 1.e4 to 1.d4 - in corr. chess.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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exigentsky
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #5 - 07/29/08 at 23:11:51
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The reason I ask is mainly because I lack the confidence to play some interesting moves when I know little theory and have little practical experience. Even upon having reasonable theoretical knowledge, it's hard for me to decide to play a move I've only tested in low quality blitz games. For example, I want to try 1. e4 in addition to 1. d4 but have rarely played it OTB and am afraid that someone who has good experience and more theory will have a big advantage. This is even more true since I don't want to shy away form the most complicated and ambitious lines. I'm still progressing and I don't like the idea of sacrificing 100 ELO for a new move. Has anyone else been in this situation and if so how did you deal with it?
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #4 - 07/29/08 at 19:16:37
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Here's a problem I have which may be directly related to the question:

I often dominate the openings, and can even keep up with GrandMasters and IMs in the opening.  

But then the gods of chess gave us the middlegame.  As the positions become more and more complex, I tend to lose my way in the thickets and the stronger players win out.  

However, I often win against almost equal opposition by using the same methods of keeping the position complex.

In my experience, the first five moves may winnow out the really weak players, but the game is still alive and well for most of the rest of us.  

Ratings reflect our entire knowledge of the game.  If two players are equally rated, but one is better at the opening than the other, then I would guess that the other player is stronger in another phase of the game.  This would suggest that the second player, having survived his weakest part of the game, will end up with better practical chances of winning.

Knowing that you will survive the first X number of moves even against a Kasparov will give you confidence, but the game is rarely decided in the first few moves of any game.
  
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trw
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Re: Openings and Rating
Reply #3 - 07/29/08 at 18:12:24
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also don't forget if the opening idea is something that is heading directly towards an endgame... the side that can prepare the advantage for the endgame there will definitely have an advantage!
  
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