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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6 (Read 59717 times)
Markovich
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #43 - 09/14/10 at 00:26:18
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lg wrote on 09/13/10 at 18:01:28:
ps: Markovich. I had a look at the books. Appararently they (Burguess) say that Black is Ok in
lines mentioned by you. However, this is not the same as been playing the variation in a few games as you did.
Do you have variations with more moves?


I haven't played any games in this variation, which is unpopular for the white side, but I've looked pretty deeply at the games that have been played, and done some analysis.  I am not happy with what I find.  In the main variation with opposite sided castling, I think Black's king is a good deal more exposed than White's.  Also it doesn't seem to me that Black has any credible way of threatening the e5 pawn, which he can do in many other forms of the Flohr.  I think that Burgess was unjustly dismissive of White's chances in this line.
  

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MarkG
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #42 - 09/13/10 at 21:47:15
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I don't play the Flohr, and with all due respect to Burgess, I have to agree with Markovich's evaluation of that line. It seems to me that things have already gone wrong for black. If white can recapture on e5 with his pawn like that and then fortify it, he is always going to be doing well. Maybe black should consider playing dxe5 earlier, perhaps in place of Nbd7.
  
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lg
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #41 - 09/13/10 at 18:01:28
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ps: Markovich. I had a look at the books. Appararently they (Burguess) say that Black is Ok in
lines mentioned by you. However, this is not the same as been playing the variation in a few games as you did.
Do you have variations with more moves?
  
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lg
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #40 - 09/13/10 at 10:58:19
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Markovich wrote on 09/12/10 at 17:03:42:
To me the whole line looks quite good for White.  This would seem to be a strong answer to 4...Nc6.

Also lately I have despaired of finding a remedy for this line against the Flohr Variation: 4...Bg5 5.Be2 c6 6.c4 Nb6 7.Nbd2 N1d7 8.h3! 

8...Bxf3 is pretty well forced, after which 9.Nxf3 dxe5 10.dxe5 e6 11.O-O Qc7 12.Bf4 (or even 12.Qd4) and after many attempts, I have failed to find a convincing demonstration of anything resembling a playable game for Black.  If he castles queenside, White's attack there is very strong; if kingside, he has no counterplay at all and may even be attacked there as well.  I would be happy to hear anyone's proposal for Black's play in this line.


Not familiar with the line. Thus, it is not easy to access
opine. However, it appears to me that 9...Bf5 can also be played.
i) 10. exd6 exd6 ledas to an exhange where Black played two moves with the Bishopbut White's Knight
in d2 is not well located (in fact, it appears to me that 
9....Bxf3 arrives at the exact time to develop that Knight)
ii) 10. OO dxe5
iii) 10. Nh4 Be6 !? and if 11 f4 g6 and we are almost in a 4PA line

  
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Markovich
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #39 - 09/12/10 at 17:03:42
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To me the whole line looks quite good for White.  This would seem to be a strong answer to 4...Nc6.

Also lately I have despaired of finding a remedy for this line against the Flohr Variation: 4...Bg5 5.Be2 c6 6.c4 Nb6 7.Nbd2 N1d7 8.h3! 

8...Bxf3 is pretty well forced, after which 9.Nxf3 dxe5 10.dxe5 e6 11.O-O Qc7 12.Bf4 (or even 12.Qd4) and after many attempts, I have failed to find a convincing demonstration of anything resembling a playable game for Black.  If he castles queenside, White's attack there is very strong; if kingside, he has no counterplay at all and may even be attacked there as well.  I would be happy to hear anyone's proposal for Black's play in this line.
« Last Edit: 09/12/10 at 21:12:08 by Markovich »  

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Kam
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #38 - 09/10/10 at 12:04:48
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Back to the Drawing Board and A Change in Direction.

     After much analysis, I have concluded that 9.d5 mentioned by Linksspringer essentially gives white a strong advantage. Black must pursue a very arduous middle game defensive task,
avoid lots of traps and endure a pawn deposit. Black never really equalized after 10… Rc8 11. d5 and a possible continuation is as follows:

1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6  4.Nf3 Nc6  5.c4 Nb6  6.Nc3 Bg4  7.Be3 e6  (7… dxe5 8.d5 Nd4  9.Bxd4 exd4  10.Qxd4 Bxf3  11.gxf3 e6  12.O-O-O  Qf6  13.Qxf6 gxf6  14.Bh3 Nxc4  15.dxe6 Rd8  16.Rxd8 Kxd8  17.Rd1+ Bd6  18.exf7 Ne5  19.Be6 Ke7  20.Bb3 Nxf7 (S. Buecker) 21.Nd5 Kf8  22.Nxf6 Kg7  23.Ne4 Nf4+  24.Kc2 Nd6  25.Rg1+ Kh6±  White has a slight material advantage due to the extra doubled pawn, but black has some drawing chances due to the opposite colour square bishops.)
8.exd6 cxd6 9.Qb3 Bxf3  10.gxf3 Rc8  11.d5! (Linksspringer)  Ne5 12.dxe6 fxe6  13. c5! dxc5  14.Qxe6+

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Qe7 15.Bb5+ Nc6 No knock out blow was found, but my analysis shows 16.Qg4 Qd7  17.Qe4+ Qe7  18.O-O-O Qxe4  Black is forced to trade off queens. The  9…Bxf3 bishop for knight exchange with the intention to give white doubled pawns appears to be flawed! 19.fxe4 a6  20.Be2 Nd4  21.Bd3 Rd8  22.e5 Be7  23.Be4 Nc4  Black needs to have active pieces before the bishop pair becomes too dominating  in the open position. 24.Rhg1 g6  25.Bxb7 Nxb2  26.Kxb2 Rb8  27.Bxd4 Rxb7+  28.Kc2 cxd4  29.Rxd4 O-O 30.Rf1±

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The line 1.e4 Nf6  2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6  4.Nf3 Nc6  5.c4 Nb6  6.Nc3 dxe5 seems to be a lot better than the previously investigated  6…. Bg4 line.

A possible continuation is  7.d5 Nb4 8.a3 Na6 It has taken this knight three moves to get to this square, but black is still okay. 9.Nxe5 g6

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White has a large variety of 10th move 
alternatives, but black’s position seems playable. 
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #37 - 09/10/10 at 01:47:35
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lg wrote on 09/09/10 at 15:51:46:
After, Stefan's line 7...dxe5 8.d5 Nd4 9.Bxd4 exd4 10.Qxd4 Bxf3 11.gxf3 e6 12.0-0-0 Qf6, White can play 13. QxQ and next 14. Bh3 and I think it as has small durable advantage.

14...Nxc4 15.dxe6 Rd8 16.Rxd8+ Kxd8 17.Rd1+ Bd6 18.exf7 Ne5 19.Be6 Ke7 20.Bb3 c6 (Nxf7 =) =.
  
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lg
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #36 - 09/09/10 at 15:51:46
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This is another example of an Alekhine variation where the move (e.g., 4...Nc6) allows a complex and tactical variation (5.c4 Nb6 6.e6) and many hours
where spent in making the line viable for Black.
However, a less tactical line allows easily a plus over = position, at least in my opinion.
After, Stefan's line 7...dxe5 8.d5 Nd4 9.Bxd4 exd4 10.Qxd4 Bxf3 11.gxf3 e6 12.0-0-0 Qf6, White can play 13. QxQ and next 14. Bh3 and I think it as has small durable advantage.

Linksspringer line given in the previous post, more or less, makes Kam's line 10...Rc8 not as good as it seems.
Any way, in this line, interesting alternatives to 9.Qb3 can be played such as:
i) 9. d5 and if 9...Ne5 then 10. c5
ii) 9. h3
In both cases White has a nice game. Of course, no forced wins in any variation.
  
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linksspringer
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #35 - 09/09/10 at 09:11:11
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Thanks Kam! However, I am afraid the d5 idea is still very dangerous:
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c4 Nb6 6.Nc3 Bg4 7.Be3 e6 8.exd6 cxd6 9.Qb3 Bxf3 10.gxf3 Rc8 11.d5
For example, 11...Ne5 12.dxe6 fxe6 13.c5 dxc5 14.Qxe6+ Qe7 15.Bb5+ or 11...exd5 12.cxd5 Ne5 13.Bb5+ or 11...Na5 12.Qb5+. White gets too many open lines for attack.
Sad

  
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Kam
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #34 - 09/08/10 at 13:19:04
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Comments Based on the Game Safarli-Chighladze, Baku Open 2010 (1-0, 35) 

1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c4 Nb6 6.Nc3 Bg4 [6...dxe5 7.d5!] 7.Be3 and after 7...e6 8.exd6 cxd6 9.Qb3 Bxf3 Black’s aim is to burden white with a mangled king side pawn structure, look for opportunities in the middle game and win the end game. 9…. Qd7 was actually played and white played 10.d5 with a strong initiative. 10.gxf3 Rc8!?

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A very formidable reply. If white is serious about winning, white must commit to queen side castling and risk having the white king sit at least temporally on the half open c file.
A possible continuation is 11.O-O-O d5  12.c5 Na5  13.Bb5+ (13.Qb5+ Nd7  (A clever way of blocking the check and defending the knight at a5.) 14.b4 Nc6  15. Qxb7 Rc7  16.Qa6 Nxb4  17.Qa4 Nc6  18.Bf4 Be7  19.Bxc7 Qxc7  20.Bb5 Ndb8  21.Rhg1 O-O  22.Ne2 a6  23.Bd3 Bf6 =)  

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13….Nd7  14.Qa4 Nc6
15.h4 Be7
(15… h5? would allow white to quickly open up the black king side.)16. Rhg1 Bf6  Black is trying to restrain the advancing of the king side pawns for as long as possible. 17.Be2 a6  18.h5 Qa5  19.Qxa5 Nxa5 20.Kc2 Nc6  21.a3 Ne7±/=

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The knight at e7 is aiming for the strategic f5 out post. The other knight could manouvre to c6 via b8. It is worth noting that the castling of the black king during this variation seems to lead to a serious disadvantage.

Conclusions

Black should deviate with 9…. Bxf3 10.gxf3 Rc8!? against Safarli's move order.

  
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lg
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #33 - 09/08/10 at 09:01:17
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No, I dont see anything better than 6...Bg4 which, apparently, does not equalize.
  
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #32 - 09/08/10 at 09:00:11
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7...dxe5 8.d5 Nd4 9.Bxd4 exd4 10.Qxd4 Bxf3 11.gxf3 e6 12.0-0-0 Qf6. Maybe +=, but pretty equal if Qs are off.
  
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #31 - 09/08/10 at 08:33:31
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lg wrote on 09/07/10 at 16:42:07:
perhaps, don't play 4...Nc6  Wink

Perhaps! Can I assume then that you don't see a good response for Black to 1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c4 Nb6 6.Nc3 ? Which would be interesting in itself.
  
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lg
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #30 - 09/07/10 at 16:42:07
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perhaps, don't play 4...Nc6  Wink
  
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Re: Main Line Alekhine with 4...Nc6
Reply #29 - 09/07/10 at 10:36:58
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There is a recent game Safarli-Chighladze, Baku Open 2010 (1-0, 35) with a tricky move order:
1.e4 Nf6 2.e5 Nd5 3.d4 d6 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.c4 Nb6 6.Nc3 Bg4 [6...dxe5 7.d5!] 7.Be3 and after 7...e6 8.exd6 cxd6 9.Qb3 Qd7 10.d5 White already had a strong initiative.
Instead, 7...dxe5 8.d5 still looks unpleasant. And if 7...g6 then 8.exd6 cxd6 9.d5 Ne5 10.c5!
What do you think Black's best is against Safarli's move order?
  
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