tipau wrote on 11/11/08 at 20:34:41:


Yes, it seems upon further reflection that White has too much ready-made queenside play.  In line b), Black should play 8...N5b6 instead as TN gave, and then his 9.b3 could be met by 9...Qf6 and 10...0-0-0, but it doesn't work so well against 9.c5 Nd5 10.Nf4, or 9.Nd2 Qf6 (not the best) 10.Qb3 0-0-0 11.a4 with dangerous play.

However the plan with ...Be7 and ...0-0 might come close to equality in those lines.

Again, after 6.Qxe2, although the queenside castling plan looked attractive on first sight, it seems White has too much queenside play: in your line it would be suicidal for Black to castle into the open c-file, while I looked at attempts like 7...N5f6 8.0-0 Nb6 followed by ...Qd7 and ...0-0-0 plus 7...N7b6 8.0-0 e6 9.c4 Nf6 10.Nc3 Be7 followed by ...Qd7 and ...0-0-0, but they both give White dangerous play while Black's kingside offensive hasn't even got off the ground.

Alternative approaches:  I see nothing but a riskless edge for White after 7...e6 8.0-0 Be7 9.c4 N5f6 10.Nc3 0-0.  The alternative is to continue with the plan of developing the bishop on d6: 7...e6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.c4 N5f6 and then after 10.Nc3, simply play 10...0-0 (taking the sting out of d4-d5) with the idea of ...c6 and ...Qc7 with possible counterchances.  White can play c4-c5 to chase the bishop back to e7, but maybe relinquishing some of the central control, particularly of the d5-square.

I still can't find any way for White to render the ...0-0-0 plan suicidal after the immediate 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2 Nxd5 5.Nf3 Bf5 (5...b5!?), where I don't see a way to stop Black continuing 6...e6 and then ...Nc6, ...Qd7 and ...0-0-0.

Maybe 4.Bb5+ Bd7 5.Be2 is the biggest annoyance after all?

@ TN
I haven't played the Scandinavian (apart from the odd game or so) for a few years it's possible there's something new in this line I'm not aware of, but the latest knowledge of the 3.Bb5+ Bd7 4.Be2 line that I have is that after 8.a3 0-0 9.c4 Nb6 10.Nc3 Nc6 11.Be3 (11.h3 Bf6 12.Be2 is the same) 11...Bf6 12.h3!? 
(this stops 12...Qe7 because of 13.g4! Bg6 14.g5 winning the piece. If White plays 13.b3 Qe7 and if 13.b4 Bg4 - one game of mine continued 14.Ne4 Bxf3 15.Nxf6+ Qxf6 16.Bxf3 Nxc4 17.Bxc6 bxc6 18.Qc2 Nb6 {18...Nxe3 19.fxe3 Qg5 is possible} 19.Qxc6 Nd5 and it was soon a draw N.Rutter-T.Seymour, 2004)
12...Bg6
(This was mentioned by Emms in his 2nd edition Scandinavian book as possibly Black's best. I actually found and played it before the book was published, so it was nice to have it validated - not so nice that I knew I'd have less chance of surprising anyone with it again! The similiar line 12...h6 13.b4 e5! 14.d5 e4 15.Nd4 Nxd4 16.Bxd4 c6 17.Rc1 is also reasonable for Black in my opinion. Emms says White is better after 17...cxd5? 18.c5 but if Black instead keeps the tension with 17...Re8 and Rc8 I don't see why White is better)
13.b4 e5 14.d5
(14.dxe5 Nxe5 15.Nxe5 Bxe5 =)
14...e4 15.Nd4 Nxd4
(Emms only gives 15...Ne5 without comment but after 16.Qb3 White is playing c5 and looks good to me)
16.Bxd4 c6 17.Bxf6 Qxf6 18.Qb3 was A.Rawlinson-T.Seymour, 2004 and now 18...cxd5 19.Nxd5 Nxd5 20.cxd5 is if anything a little better for Black. Maybe White does better with 17.Rc1 but I'm still not really scared for Black.

Onto the 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2 line. With regards to what you said about it in your first post, I think on the 6.Qxe2 line you said pretty much what I said in my first post (Black has a solid Caro-Kann type position). Maybe you are right and Black isn't so bad - possibly I just need to study these positions a little more to get a better "feel".

@ SWJediknight
I think it might be difficult implementing the 0-0-0 plan 
e.g. 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5+ Nbd7 5.Be2 Bxe2
a) 6.Qxe2 Nxd5 7.Nf3 e6 8.0-0 Bd6 9.c4 N5f6 10.Nc3 c6 (10...Qe7? 11.c5) 11.d5!
b) 6.Nxe2 Nxd5 7.0-0 e6 8.c4 N5f6 9.Nbc3 (9.Qb3!?) 9...Bd6 (9...c6 10.Bf4) 10.Qb3! Qc8 11.Ng3 c6 12.Nge4

Alas it's only me who replies first.

TN wrote on 11/11/08 at 08:55:23:


Not only I think the same, I think this because of experience from the Black side. I have played the Kieler Variation (3.d4 Nxd5 4.c4 Nb4) a couple of times - really not as bad as theory wants us to believe - until I began to met 4.Nf3, which forced me to give it up (alas).

TN wrote on 11/10/08 at 07:29:39:

Thanks for the advice. I suppose that explains why in the 5 years I played the Scandinavian I never played the ...Qa5 lines and always played for the Portugeese gambit instead.

TN wrote on 11/10/08 at 07:29:39:

I wouldn't call that enterprising. 4...Bg4 takes play back into regular 2...Nxd5 lines (as I mentioned in my original post). I think White is better there so as already discussed 3.Nf3 Qxd5 4.Nc3 Qd6 seems to be the best fitting line.

TN wrote on 11/10/08 at 07:29:39:

But it's legal and some people do play it I assure you. If there's a simple line which gives White an advantage (which may or may not be the case here) personally I think that's a good reason to not play an opening, regardless of how popular it might be.

TN wrote on 11/10/08 at 11:03:01:

I'm perfectly happy to play against this line and it was briefly discussed already. In the main line (4...Nxd5 5.d4 Bf5 6.Nf3 e6 7.0-0 Be7) Black's Nb4 ideas discourage c4, while if White plays a3 then c4 Black's light squared bishop is again very useful in pressurising the White centre (ideas of Bg4 and Bxf3 - after Nb6, Nc6 & Bf6). This is why 3.d4 Bg4 4.Bb5 Nbd7 5.Be2 is such an annoying line, the exchange of light squared bishops is useful for White and unlike 3.d4 Bg4 4.Be2 Bxe2 5.Qxe2 Qxd5 Black's queen is inactive so he is forced into a "normal" Scandinavian type position

TN wrote on 11/10/08 at 07:29:39:

Methinks that the c8-bishop is outside the pawn chain in the CK as well. Usually with less problems than in the Scandi as there it is often not sitting well on g4.

If you don't like positions that are slightly worse but solid or pawn structures with a striking resemblance to the Caro-Kann, then perhaps the Scandinavian is not the best opening for your style. 

One of the main ideas of the Scandinavian (at least with ...Qa5) is to reach an 'improved' Caro-Kann with the c8-bishop outside the pawn chain at the expense of a couple of tempi moving the queen. 

If you do like them, then the Scandinavian is a sensible choice of opening. 

Instead of 3.Nf3 Nd5 4.d4 Bf5, which scores quite poorly in the line you give, 4...Bg4 5.Be2 e6 is a more enterprising way to play. Objectively White is slightly better of course, but Black has decent counterplay. 

According to my reference database, 4.Bb5 is not as common as 4.Be2 and 4.f3, so I wouldn't ditch the Portugese Variation solely on the basis of this variation. After 4...Bd7 5.Be2 Be2 6.Qe2 Nd5 7.Nf3 e6 8.0-0, 8...Be7 9.c4 N5f6 10.Nc3 0-0 looks okay for Black - the position after ...c6 is very solid, and the exchange of light-squared bishops eases Black's defence. Eventually Black could either pressure the d4-pawn with pieces or gradually prepare a liquidating ...e5 break. 

6.Ne2 doesn't look scary to me - the following game is a good example:
[Event "Izmir GP op"]
[Date "2002.08.30"]
[White "Secer, Ata"]
[Black "Sayman, Umut"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]

1. e4 d5 2. exd5 Nf6 3. d4 Bg4 4. Bb5+ Nbd7 5. Be2 Bxe2 6. Nxe2 Nxd5 7. O-O e6 8. c4 N5b6 9. b3 Be7 10. Bb2 O-O 11. Nbc3 Nf6      12. Qc2 c6 13. Rad1 Qc7 14. Ng3 Rad8 15. Nce4 Nbd7 16. Nc3 Qa5 17. Rfe1 Rfe8 18. Re2 Qg5 19. Red2 Nb6 20. Nge4 Qg6 21. Nxf6+ Bxf6 22. Ne4 Be7 23. Bc3 Qf5 24. a4 Nd7 25. d5 exd5 26. cxd5 cxd5
27. Rxd5 Qe6 28. Nd6 Nc5 29. Nxe8 Rxd5 30. Nxg7 Rxd1+ 31. Qxd1 Qxb3 32. Qxb3 Nxb3 33. Nf5 Bc5 34. Kf1 a6 35. Ke2 b5 36. axb5 axb5 37. f3 1/2-1/2

tipau wrote on 11/05/08 at 02:34:19:


Why not start by looking up all of Laylo's Scandanavian games, if he plays it half as often as mentioned in the update then he must have encountered quite a few of these alternative move orders.

Tops