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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219341 times)
sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #116 - 02/04/09 at 06:21:12
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Hi Uruk!

This is unforced, but Mr. Fritz plays a very pretty tactical shot to win the game. Yes, I still like my Queen in the center or driven to a good square

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Be2 O-O 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.d3 f5 12.Nec3 e4 13.dxe4 fxe4 14.Qxe4 Bf5 15.Qa4 Rb8 16.a3 Bf6 17.O-O Re8 18.Bf3 Be5 19.Bd2 Nxc3 20.Bxc3 Bxc3 21.Nxc3 Rxb2 22.Rac1 Re6 23.Nd1 Rb5 24.Ne3 Qc7 25.Rcd1 Rh6 26.g3 Be6 27.Nd5!!Uruk wrote on 02/04/09 at 04:17:44:
It is not my intention to exchange the knights.
After 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.d3 f5, I'm a tempo up on ArkheiN, because I did not play ...h6.

Now you must decide where the knight goes. c3 or g3 ?
On 12.Nec3, e4 may even be possible.
In any case, I can't believe you're too proud of your Queen in the middle of the board.

  
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Uruk
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #115 - 02/04/09 at 04:17:44
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It is not my intention to exchange the knights.
After 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.d3 f5, I'm a tempo up on ArkheiN, because I did not play ...h6.

Now you must decide where the knight goes. c3 or g3 ?
On 12.Nec3, e4 may even be possible.
In any case, I can't believe you're too proud of your Queen in the middle of the board.
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #114 - 02/04/09 at 03:11:35
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It is difficult for Black to make progress without moving his Kingside pawns, but this may lead them to be overextended and weak e.g. 

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Be2 O-O 10.Ne4 Nxe4 11.Qxe4 Qd6 12.d3 f5 13.Qe3 Be6 14.Nc3 f4 15.Qf3 Bd5 16.Ne4 Qg6 17.O-O Nb7 18.Qg4 Qxg4 19.Bxg4 Nc5 20.Nc3 Rab8 21.Rb1 g5 22.Re1 Uruk wrote on 02/04/09 at 02:22:22:
Looking at it, Rb8 isn't particularly useful.
I prefer the quickest castling 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Be2 0-0

I intend to attack the knight not by ...h6, but something more active like ...Ng4.
Let me know if this is the least bit refuted.

  
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Uruk
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #113 - 02/04/09 at 03:04:17
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I'm skipping Rb8, look at my previous post.
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #112 - 02/04/09 at 02:46:30
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Excellent idea, but--- 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 Be7 10.Ne4 Be6 11.b3 Nxe4 12.Qxe4 Qd4 13.Nc3 f5 14.Qe3 Bf6 15.Bb2 Nc4 16.Bxc4 Bxc4 17.Nd1! Qxe3 18.Nxe3 There are obviously a lot of other variations, but none of them equalize.Uruk wrote on 02/03/09 at 22:03:14:
Well, for one thing, what do you play against 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 Be7 (development!)

Occasion to salute everyone, this is my first post here.

  
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Uruk
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #111 - 02/04/09 at 02:22:22
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Looking at it, Rb8 isn't particularly useful.
I prefer the quickest castling 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Be2 0-0

I intend to attack the knight not by ...h6, but something more active like ...Ng4.
Let me know if this is the least bit refuted.
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #110 - 02/04/09 at 01:55:00
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5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7 Qc8 7.f3 Nd4 8.Nxh8

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Be2 Be7 11.Nec3 Nf4 12.d3 Nxe2 13.Nxe2 O-O 14.O-O Qd6 15.b3 Re8 16.Bb2 ArKheiN wrote on 02/03/09 at 21:27:40:
5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7 Qc8 7.f3 Nd4 let's continue until I completly agree with you.

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Be2 (10.Nbc3 seems stronger to me) 10..Be7 (10..Be6 followed by 11..Nb4 is clearly weak). And now?

  
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Uruk
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #109 - 02/03/09 at 22:03:14
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Well, for one thing, what do you play against 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 Be7 (development!)

Occasion to salute everyone, this is my first post here.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #108 - 02/03/09 at 21:46:28
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/03/09 at 21:27:40:
5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7 Qc8 7.f3 Nd4


Now 5...Bg4 strikes me as really weird. What on earth is black going to do after 8. fxg4 ?

I'm not taking sloughters laughable side here, but that just looks a tad too crazy.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #107 - 02/03/09 at 21:27:40
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5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7 Qc8 7.f3 Nd4 let's continue until I completly agree with you.

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Be2 (10.Nbc3 seems stronger to me) 10..Be7 (10..Be6 followed by 11..Nb4 is clearly weak). And now?
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #106 - 02/03/09 at 20:47:18
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5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7 Qc8 7.f3 +-

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5 10.Be2 Be6 11.d3 Nb4 12.Bd1 Nxa2 13.Be3 Rb8 14.b3 Nb4 15.O-O Nd5 16.Qg3 Nxe3 17.fxe3 Qc7 18.d4 Nb7 19.Rxa7 +-ArKheiN wrote on 02/03/09 at 20:27:36:
Let's continue in the recommanded line for Black.

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5.

5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7, that was the first test, let's continue a few moves, just to see. 6..Qc8!?

  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #105 - 02/03/09 at 20:27:36
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Let's continue in the recommanded line for Black.

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nd5.

5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7, that was the first test, let's continue a few moves, just to see. 6..Qc8!?
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #104 - 02/03/09 at 20:22:51
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5.exd5 Bg4 6.Nxf7

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nxe4 10.Qxe4 Qf6 11.Bd3 e.g. g6 12.O-O Bf5 13.Qf3 +/- White can always play the Kopec maneuver at some point i.e. c3/Bc2/Qa4 (if necessary) Unless you can demonstrate that Black gets a sustained initiative or regains the pawn, White is better.ArKheiN wrote on 02/03/09 at 19:42:08:
sloughter, you did forgot to refute Qf3 8..h6, a move recommanded by some sources.

I have a question for you too, how do you refute 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Bg4? Just a naive question because Iam curious.

Improvments for Black will probably come everywhere Smiley

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #103 - 02/03/09 at 19:57:57
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Nelson wrote on 02/03/09 at 19:16:03:
Hi Guys,

Why are you wasting time replying to each other in this lengthy prose when things have obviously run their course and serving no further constructive purpose....

I'm sure you could spend some time more constructively on some other topics rather than rising to Sloughters bait.

Can we give DrKodos an award for the most amusingly sarcastic post on the forum to date?

I'm not going to bother to read this thread any more let alone waste any typing time on it!!

Nelson Grin


Oh, because I like to hear myself talk.  Any objections?
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #102 - 02/03/09 at 19:42:08
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sloughter, you did forgot to refute Qf3 8..h6, a move recommanded by some sources.

I have a question for you too, how do you refute 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Bg4? Just a naive question because Iam curious.

Improvments for Black will probably come everywhere Smiley
  
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