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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219434 times)
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #161 - 02/07/09 at 09:58:52
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Please Sloughter, don't ask me again if I want to resign after each predictables moves. When I decided to continue with 11..Qc7 I have of course anticipated 12.Nc3.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #160 - 02/07/09 at 08:25:06
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Grin  Grin  Grin  Wink

Nelson
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #159 - 02/07/09 at 07:18:32
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sloughter wrote on 02/07/09 at 06:38:57:
Hi ArkheiN! Do you have any other pseudonames? I have a tough time figuring out which personality I am dealing with! Have you ever watched the film, "The Three Faces of Eve."? Perhaps you can watch and learn something from it.

The post responses from various members is well known and predictable. I recommend every post member check out the website called, "The Suppression of Inconvenient Facts in Physics: The Big Bang Scandal". Here is what Brian Martin had to say in his introduction,

"Textbooks present science as a noble pursuit for truth, in which progress depends on questioning established ideas. But for many scientists, this is a cruel myth."

"They know from bitter experience that disagreeing with the dominant view is dangerous---especially when that view is backed by powerful interest groups. Call it suppression of intellectual dissent."

"The usual pattern is that some one does research or speaks out in a way that threatens a powerful interest group, typically a government, industry or professional body. As a result, representatives of that group attack the critic's ideas or critic personally---by censuring writing, blocking publications, denying appointments or promotions, withdrawing research grants, taking legal actions, harassing, blacklisting, spreading rumors..."

May I suggest one additional hat for you to wear? How about the hat of the Grand Inquisitor so I can play the role of Galileo? Yes, I can be forced to recant, but I would prefer to be permitted to tell the truth.

Do you really want to continue the game? Pay attention Luke, the Jedi Master, Yoda is about to give you a chess lesson. 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 +-

...

Dear Mr. Arkheim,

In an earlier post, you indicated that you wanted to "learn everything I can from you" 

Then you stated, "So let's continue 'JUST FOR FUN'" (emphasis added). Then you stated, "and there Sloughter 'resigned'" (That was certainly news to me 

Then you stated, "I hope you understand something new now." (Yes---never trust a stranger bearing gifts)

Well, Mr. Arkheim, if you want to learn from me, I guess that makes me Yoda and you are my trusty apprentice Luke Skywalker. In a student/teacher relationship, it is the job of the teacher to give a performance rating for his/her students on a regular basis e.g. a report card. Here is your first (and I hope your last!) report card. In terms of attendance, you get an "A" for showing up on the posts on a regular basis. For alacrity (cheerful readiness) "A", for effort, "A" for physical education (mental gymnastics) "A" for imagination "A" (It was a great scheme to make me look "bad"). 

Now for the critical grade, Mr. Arkheim, listen closely; I am only going to tell you this once: If you do not resign your theoretical position in the following move sequence immediately: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7??, then you get an "F" as a theoretician.

I'm am truly sorry that I inadvertently set you up when I listed the candidate moves. When I came up with candidate moves for this position in the span of about a minute (I did forget 8...h6), I made the fatal assumption that Black had compensation for two pawns in the 8...Be7 line, just like the 8...Rb8 lines. The two lines are as different as night and day. The only similarity is that Black is down two pawns in both variations; aside from that there are no similarities.

When White failed to get enough of an advantage with Bd3, Be2, or Bf1, I knew there was a gross error somewhere; White should be winning here. Then I challenged my original assumption: That the 8...Be7 line was "similar" to the 8...Rb8 line---a fatal assumption.Then the solution was obvious.

9.Bxc6ch! (of course in hindsight) Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 (The first major difference between this and the Rb8 variation. In that variation, the check is met with 10...Nd7. In this position, this hangs the exchange 10...Nd7?? 11.Nxf7! Kxf7 12.Qd5ch/Qxa8+- so Black is forced to play the inferior 10...Bd7 (Perhaps you would like me analyze the position after 10...Qd7 11.Qxa8)

Here are the seven moves that it takes to cook 8...Be7: 1.Bxc6ch, 2.Qxc6ch, 3.Qa6 4.Qe2, 5.Nc3, 6.d3, 7.O-O The order depends on what responses Black makes. This position is +- Why? Because White has a four to one pawn majority on the Queenside, a protected passed pawn and Black has no compensation for either one.




Hi Richard,

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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #158 - 02/07/09 at 06:38:57
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Hi ArkheiN! Do you have any other pseudonames? I have a tough time figuring out which personality I am dealing with! Have you ever watched the film, "The Three Faces of Eve."? Perhaps you can watch and learn something from it.

The post responses from various members is well known and predictable. I recommend every post member check out the website called, "The Suppression of Inconvenient Facts in Physics: The Big Bang Scandal". Here is what Brian Martin had to say in his introduction,

"Textbooks present science as a noble pursuit for truth, in which progress depends on questioning established ideas. But for many scientists, this is a cruel myth."

"They know from bitter experience that disagreeing with the dominant view is dangerous---especially when that view is backed by powerful interest groups. Call it suppression of intellectual dissent."

"The usual pattern is that some one does research or speaks out in a way that threatens a powerful interest group, typically a government, industry or professional body. As a result, representatives of that group attack the critic's ideas or critic personally---by censuring writing, blocking publications, denying appointments or promotions, withdrawing research grants, taking legal actions, harassing, blacklisting, spreading rumors..."

May I suggest one additional hat for you to wear? How about the hat of the Grand Inquisitor so I can play the role of Galileo? Yes, I can be forced to recant, but I would prefer to be permitted to tell the truth.

Do you really want to continue the game? Pay attention Luke, the Jedi Master, Yoda is about to give you a chess lesson. 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 +-ArKheiN wrote on 02/07/09 at 01:40:12:
Quote:
Dear Mr. Arkheim,

In an earlier post, you indicated that you wanted to "learn everything I can from you" 

Then you stated, "So let's continue 'JUST FOR FUN'" (emphasis added). Then you stated, "and there Sloughter 'resigned'" (That was certainly news to me 

Then you stated, "I hope you understand something new now." (Yes---never trust a stranger bearing gifts)

Well, Mr. Arkheim, if you want to learn from me, I guess that makes me Yoda and you are my trusty apprentice Luke Skywalker. In a student/teacher relationship, it is the job of the teacher to give a performance rating for his/her students on a regular basis e.g. a report card. Here is your first (and I hope your last!) report card. In terms of attendance, you get an "A" for showing up on the posts on a regular basis. For alacrity (cheerful readiness) "A", for effort, "A" for physical education (mental gymnastics) "A" for imagination "A" (It was a great scheme to make me look "bad"). 

Now for the critical grade, Mr. Arkheim, listen closely; I am only going to tell you this once: If you do not resign your theoretical position in the following move sequence immediately: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7??, then you get an "F" as a theoretician.

I'm am truly sorry that I inadvertently set you up when I listed the candidate moves. When I came up with candidate moves for this position in the span of about a minute (I did forget 8...h6), I made the fatal assumption that Black had compensation for two pawns in the 8...Be7 line, just like the 8...Rb8 lines. The two lines are as different as night and day. The only similarity is that Black is down two pawns in both variations; aside from that there are no similarities.

When White failed to get enough of an advantage with Bd3, Be2, or Bf1, I knew there was a gross error somewhere; White should be winning here. Then I challenged my original assumption: That the 8...Be7 line was "similar" to the 8...Rb8 line---a fatal assumption.Then the solution was obvious.

9.Bxc6ch! (of course in hindsight) Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 (The first major difference between this and the Rb8 variation. In that variation, the check is met with 10...Nd7. In this position, this hangs the exchange 10...Nd7?? 11.Nxf7! Kxf7 12.Qd5ch/Qxa8+- so Black is forced to play the inferior 10...Bd7 (Perhaps you would like me analyze the position after 10...Qd7 11.Qxa8)

Here are the seven moves that it takes to cook 8...Be7: 1.Bxc6ch, 2.Qxc6ch, 3.Qa6 4.Qe2, 5.Nc3, 6.d3, 7.O-O The order depends on what responses Black makes. This position is +- Why? Because White has a four to one pawn majority on the Queenside, a protected passed pawn and Black has no compensation for either one.


Sorry but I really don't consider you as my chess teacher. I don't want to be seen as your student and you the master. I prefer to be seen as a psychologist and you the patient with mental disorder, where I want to know everything from you to learn more about strange psychology, and to help you at the same time if I can. The day you will clearly refute the 2 Knights defense (at least 7..Be7, 7..Rb8, 7..h6, 8..Ne6 of the Fritz/Ulvestad), I will call you Ultimate Grand Master and will ask everybody to do the same. But fortunately, that day is not for soon (even if the 2 Knights is refutable, that would be in many many years, with many many analysis, or by a 3600 rated player alone maybe, so I don't believe an amateur like you will make that chess revolution). 

About the "Sloughter resigned", I say that because at the end of my joke with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Bg4?! 6.Nxf7 Qc8?! (yes, that line is refuted, that's why I say "for fun" because I wanted to laugh and see you struggle to draw or even lose in that true refuted line with the only one big trap for computers). After a few moves (6.Nxf7 Qc8?! 7.f3 Nd4 8.Nxh8 Nxf3 9.Bb5+ c6 10.gxf3 Qh3) you saw that I got you, and came back at move 8, so I considered you "resigned" the White position from the position after 10..Qh3. But anyway, my serious defense was the another one with 8.Qf3 h6 where you quickly stopped to analyse because you saw you couldn't find anything for White here (and you didn't say anything), and still now you don't give anything to show that 8..h6 is refuted.

Now you switched your attention to 8.Qf3 Be7, fine. You say White is winning, Black has no compensation, and that I should resign here immediately. Just a quick look at chesslive and statistics after 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6+ Nxc6 10.Qxc6+ Bd7: 26 games. Even Masters played that "miserable" position as Black with 2  pawns down because they wanted to give 2 pawns for nothing. And the score? 18,5 for Black, 7,5 for White, 71% for Black 29% for White. The strongest ELO with White was GM Macieja, 2633, against GM Sulskis, 2570, draw. But Macieja is lucky, he will see the path by the 25 years student from GM Alburt. Macieja played 11.Qf3?! but Sloughter show us 11.Qa6, only 1 game/26 played like this according to chesslive (0-1), but honestly, I agree that 11.Qa6 might be a real improvment for White (and it can't do worse than 11.Qc4 and 11.Qf3).

So after 11.Qa6, I hesitated a long time. No, I didn't hesitate about resigning. In fact I had already 4 reasonables moves for Black right now, I had in mind 11..Rc8, 11..h6, 11..0-0 and 11..Qc7.
And I took a decision, the best objectively? I don't know, that move is good enough for me, let's the fight begin.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7



  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #157 - 02/07/09 at 06:17:50
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Actually, as my brother would say, it is like boxing with a one-armed man. More! More!Seth_Xoma wrote on 02/07/09 at 03:14:22:
So begins the most highly anticipated match since Fischer-Spassky, Reykjavik 1972...

  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #156 - 02/07/09 at 06:15:08
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The only thing I hope to win is an open mind.sloughter wrote on 02/07/09 at 06:10:13:
Ahh---My my favorite primate has returned!drkodos wrote on 02/07/09 at 03:41:34:
I wager 400 Quatloos on ArKheiN.


  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #155 - 02/07/09 at 06:13:43
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Actually, it is a tribute. If I can survive having my ideas dissected by one of the nicest, most patient teachers and individuals I have ever met, it makes dealing with the post members fun and easy. Keep sending me those high, inside fast balls. I need batting practice so that I can hit a grand slam home run when it counts!Sacapawn wrote on 02/06/09 at 20:28:44:
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I have spent 25 years being taught by probably the finest chess teacher in America, GM Lev Alburt.


Scathing criticism of American chess teachers!  Wink

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #154 - 02/07/09 at 06:10:13
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Ahh---My my favorite primate has returned!drkodos wrote on 02/07/09 at 03:41:34:
I wager 400 Quatloos on ArKheiN.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #153 - 02/07/09 at 03:41:34
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I wager 400 Quatloos on ArKheiN.
  

I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #152 - 02/07/09 at 03:14:22
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So begins the most highly anticipated match since Fischer-Spassky, Reykjavik 1972...
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #151 - 02/07/09 at 01:40:12
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Dear Mr. Arkheim,

In an earlier post, you indicated that you wanted to "learn everything I can from you" 

Then you stated, "So let's continue 'JUST FOR FUN'" (emphasis added). Then you stated, "and there Sloughter 'resigned'" (That was certainly news to me 

Then you stated, "I hope you understand something new now." (Yes---never trust a stranger bearing gifts)

Well, Mr. Arkheim, if you want to learn from me, I guess that makes me Yoda and you are my trusty apprentice Luke Skywalker. In a student/teacher relationship, it is the job of the teacher to give a performance rating for his/her students on a regular basis e.g. a report card. Here is your first (and I hope your last!) report card. In terms of attendance, you get an "A" for showing up on the posts on a regular basis. For alacrity (cheerful readiness) "A", for effort, "A" for physical education (mental gymnastics) "A" for imagination "A" (It was a great scheme to make me look "bad"). 

Now for the critical grade, Mr. Arkheim, listen closely; I am only going to tell you this once: If you do not resign your theoretical position in the following move sequence immediately: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 Be7??, then you get an "F" as a theoretician.

I'm am truly sorry that I inadvertently set you up when I listed the candidate moves. When I came up with candidate moves for this position in the span of about a minute (I did forget 8...h6), I made the fatal assumption that Black had compensation for two pawns in the 8...Be7 line, just like the 8...Rb8 lines. The two lines are as different as night and day. The only similarity is that Black is down two pawns in both variations; aside from that there are no similarities.

When White failed to get enough of an advantage with Bd3, Be2, or Bf1, I knew there was a gross error somewhere; White should be winning here. Then I challenged my original assumption: That the 8...Be7 line was "similar" to the 8...Rb8 line---a fatal assumption.Then the solution was obvious.

9.Bxc6ch! (of course in hindsight) Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 (The first major difference between this and the Rb8 variation. In that variation, the check is met with 10...Nd7. In this position, this hangs the exchange 10...Nd7?? 11.Nxf7! Kxf7 12.Qd5ch/Qxa8+- so Black is forced to play the inferior 10...Bd7 (Perhaps you would like me analyze the position after 10...Qd7 11.Qxa8)

Here are the seven moves that it takes to cook 8...Be7: 1.Bxc6ch, 2.Qxc6ch, 3.Qa6 4.Qe2, 5.Nc3, 6.d3, 7.O-O The order depends on what responses Black makes. This position is +- Why? Because White has a four to one pawn majority on the Queenside, a protected passed pawn and Black has no compensation for either one.


Sorry but I really don't consider you as my chess teacher. I don't want to be seen as your student and you the master. I prefer to be seen as a psychologist and you the patient with mental disorder, where I want to know everything from you to learn more about strange psychology, and to help you at the same time if I can. The day you will clearly refute the 2 Knights defense (at least 7..Be7, 7..Rb8, 7..h6, 8..Ne6 of the Fritz/Ulvestad), I will call you Ultimate Grand Master and will ask everybody to do the same. But fortunately, that day is not for soon (even if the 2 Knights is refutable, that would be in many many years, with many many analysis, or by a 3600 rated player alone maybe, so I don't believe an amateur like you will make that chess revolution). 

About the "Sloughter resigned", I say that because at the end of my joke with 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Bg4?! 6.Nxf7 Qc8?! (yes, that line is refuted, that's why I say "for fun" because I wanted to laugh and see you struggle to draw or even lose in that true refuted line with the only one big trap for computers). After a few moves (6.Nxf7 Qc8?! 7.f3 Nd4 8.Nxh8 Nxf3 9.Bb5+ c6 10.gxf3 Qh3) you saw that I got you, and came back at move 8, so I considered you "resigned" the White position from the position after 10..Qh3. But anyway, my serious defense was the another one with 8.Qf3 h6 where you quickly stopped to analyse because you saw you couldn't find anything for White here (and you didn't say anything), and still now you don't give anything to show that 8..h6 is refuted.

Now you switched your attention to 8.Qf3 Be7, fine. You say White is winning, Black has no compensation, and that I should resign here immediately. Just a quick look at chesslive and statistics after 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6+ Nxc6 10.Qxc6+ Bd7: 26 games. Even Masters played that "miserable" position as Black with 2  pawns down because they wanted to give 2 pawns for nothing. And the score? 18,5 for Black, 7,5 for White, 71% for Black 29% for White. The strongest ELO with White was GM Macieja, 2633, against GM Sulskis, 2570, draw. But Macieja is lucky, he will see the path by the 25 years student from GM Alburt. Macieja played 11.Qf3?! but Sloughter show us 11.Qa6, only 1 game/26 played like this according to chesslive (0-1), but honestly, I agree that 11.Qa6 might be a real improvment for White (and it can't do worse than 11.Qc4 and 11.Qf3).

So after 11.Qa6, I hesitated a long time. No, I didn't hesitate about resigning. In fact I had already 4 reasonables moves for Black right now, I had in mind 11..Rc8, 11..h6, 11..0-0 and 11..Qc7.
And I took a decision, the best objectively? I don't know, that move is good enough for me, let's the fight begin.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7


  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #150 - 02/06/09 at 20:28:44
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I have spent 25 years being taught by probably the finest chess teacher in America, GM Lev Alburt.


Scathing criticism of American chess teachers!  Wink
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #149 - 02/06/09 at 19:16:02
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #148 - 02/06/09 at 19:11:46
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #147 - 02/06/09 at 19:07:17
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The Great Oz has spoken!
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