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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219308 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #251 - 02/13/09 at 23:29:22
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5 23.Nxb5 Qxb5 24.c4 Qxb4 25.a3 Qa4 26.Be3 Qa6

I don't care about your dreams of refuting the main line of the 2 knights, because it will never be true. So I am just finishing the deal I had with you:

sloughter said the 5 february:
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Dear Arkheim and Uruk,

Both of you set an interesting trap i.e. if you could cook one or more of my lines of analysis that your job is done; you "beat" me. As indicated in a previous post, I rely on trial and error to determine best play for both sides. I have been relying on this type of analysis under the supervision of GM Lev Alburt for 25 years. Now I am being told that I've lost the theoretical battle. Ok, Arkeim and Uruk, let's play a "game" for real; you get just one try to draw or win with Black's miserable position after 8...Be7? 9.Bxc6ch!, to justify the blunder 8...Be7. I get just one try to checkmate each of you in your separate games or, perhaps, a consultation game between the two of you.


When the game will be finished I will stop to lose my time and energy with you here, and everyone is bored about that false theoretical battle. 

Just a word about 12.Qe2, I could indeed play 12..Qxc2 but I see nothing wrong with 12..h6 again, and if 13.Nf3, 13..e4 again and if 14.Nd4, 14..0-0 where 15.Nc3 Bc5 would transpose into our game, and it's not clear that you have better alternative in that sub-line. But as I told you know, I will only play in our game.
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #250 - 02/13/09 at 23:10:18
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Agreed---the point of this post is to test the hypothesis whether White is winning as of 3...Nf6. 

The next attempt is to determine whether White has a clear advantage in the Wilkes Barre. So far, it looks like the Alburt Variation 8.Nh3 gives White good chances to achieve a plus in the Fritz. It should also be pointed out that no one has been able to refute the latest move order I gave in the 8.Ne4 Ne6 variation.

The independent lines in the Ulvestad don't seem to promise equality i.e. 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.dxc6 Bc5 9.Be2 +/= or 8...Qd5 9.Qf3 +/= The Lolli favors White, so I will attempt to show that the Wilkes Barre/Traxler leads to a simple technical advantage. In the hands of say a Korchnoi easily +/-.

4.Ng5 Bxc5 5.Bxe7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (or d6 or Qe8; Beliavsky was allowed this move order in Karpov-Beliavsky & then Karpov followed with Bxc6 which allowed Qxc6; Karpov gave away three tempos i.e. he made four Bishop moves just to exchange it off and got only one useless move from Black, 5...Ke7. No wonder Black got a strong attack!) 7.Bxc6 dxc6 (bxc6 will be dealt with separately)

7...Bxf2ch? 8.Kxf2 Nxe4ch 9.Ke1+-

7...dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Rf5 11.d3+-. To be continuedmicawber wrote on 02/13/09 at 22:20:02:
I think this game is no longer of interest, Black is by now far superior.
As it is I dont think this is the forum is the place for playing email or correspondence games.
@Sloughter,
In chess it is not unusual to do some thinking before you move....

  
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micawber
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #249 - 02/13/09 at 22:20:02
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I think this game is no longer of interest, Black is by now far superior.
As it is I dont think this is the forum is the place for playing email or correspondence games.
@Sloughter,
In chess it is not unusual to do some thinking before you move....
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #248 - 02/13/09 at 21:58:35
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The point of this post is to establish whether or not 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 favors White. Thus I will start a new move string with 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Qe2---Here is my proposition to you. For every move I make in the existing game, you have to make a move with the correct move order; otherwise my intuition sometimes takes months to kick in (see my previous posts in this matter). I promised you a refutation of 8...Be7, but as you already know, this is done with trial and error. In the first game, if 12...Qxc2, then 13.Nc3 & in tho other game, 26.Be3ArKheiN wrote on 02/13/09 at 20:58:06:
But if you think that 12.Qe2 is the correct move and that lead to equality, then you would get a correct evaluation maybe, but that's not the refutation you promised.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5 23.Nxb5 Qxb5 24.c4 Qxb4 25.a3 Qa4

  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #247 - 02/13/09 at 20:58:06
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But if you think that 12.Qe2 is the correct move and that lead to equality, then you would get a correct evaluation maybe, but that's not the refutation you promised.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5 23.Nxb5 Qxb5 24.c4 Qxb4 25.a3 Qa4
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #246 - 02/13/09 at 20:23:22
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White got too greedy. Correct was 12.Qe2 & if Qxc2 13.Nc3 with about an equal game. 25.a3ArKheiN wrote on 02/13/09 at 17:19:49:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5 23.Nxb5 Qxb5 24.c4 Qxb4


The right played move has been corrected.

  
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proustiskeen
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #245 - 02/13/09 at 19:54:38
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Again, a problem with the game.  This is the correct score, I think:

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]
[PlyCount "48"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8.
Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6+ Nxc6 10. Qxc6+ Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12. Nc3 h6 13. Nf3 O-O 14. Qe2
e4 15. Nd4 Bc5 16. Ndb5 Qc6 17. O-O Bg4 18. Qe1 Rfe8 19. h3 Bd7 20. b4 Bb6 21.
Qe2 Re5 22. d4 Rxb5 23. Nxb5 Qxb5 24. c4 Qxb4 *

  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #244 - 02/13/09 at 17:19:49
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1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5 23.Nxb5 Qxb5 24.c4 Qxb4


The right played move has been corrected.
« Last Edit: 02/13/09 at 19:56:57 by ArKheiN »  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #243 - 02/13/09 at 12:41:48
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24.c4ArKheiN wrote on 02/13/09 at 06:20:48:
Ok I play 22..Rxb5 and if 23.Nxb5, I play 23..Qxb5.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5

  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #242 - 02/13/09 at 06:20:48
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Ok I play 22..Rxb5 and if 23.Nxb5, I play 23..Qxb5.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4 Rxb5
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #241 - 02/13/09 at 03:58:34
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Sorry, I was waiting for your reply. 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 O-O 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.O-O Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5 22.d4ArKheiN wrote on 02/12/09 at 13:55:14:
Hey sloughter, are you still alive? Just in the case you did forgot our game: I have played 21..Re5 some days ago.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5 c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Qf3 Be7 9. Bxc6 Nxc6 10. Qxc6 Bd7 11. Qa6 Qc7 12.Nc3 h6 13.Nf3 0-0 14.Qe2 e4 15.Nd4 Bc5 16.Ndb5 Qc6 17.0-0 Bg4 18.Qe1 Rfe8 19.h3 Bd7 20.b4 Bb6 21.Qe2 Re5



  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #240 - 02/13/09 at 02:51:36
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White's two pawns up, and mate is not in view.  White therefore wins, right?
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #239 - 02/12/09 at 21:33:23
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Yes MUBAs, that's the position. Thank you for the diagramm. So we are waiting for sloughter's reply since a few days now Smiley
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #238 - 02/12/09 at 20:50:02
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For the benefit of the kibitzers, I believe this is the current position:

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #237 - 02/12/09 at 16:41:35
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Thank you proustiskeen, indeed, I meant 18..Rfe8 and not Rfb8 sorry, I edited it.
  
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