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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6? (Read 219277 times)
dfan
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #326 - 02/22/09 at 20:39:26
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TN wrote on 02/21/09 at 00:20:25:
http://chessbooks.nl/elburg123.html

It is amusing to read how the author sarcastically praises your book. Note that every single product in that link has been given a very positive review by him, e.g. he claims that 'Play 1.b4' is a very important reference work and that 'Chess for Scoundreds' is a must for every chess player, both of which are incorrect.

It's not sarcastic; as you noticed, Elburg praises every book he "reviews".
  
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Kramnikaze
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #325 - 02/22/09 at 19:07:06
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sloughter wrote on 02/22/09 at 16:04:49:
8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bf1 O-O 10.d3 Ng4 11.Nh3 f5 12.Nc3 Ba6 13.Qd1 Bb4 14.Be2 e4 15.O-O exd3 16.Bxd3 Bxd3 17.cxd3 Qf6 18.Bf4 Rad8 19.Qc2 Qd4 20.Rfd1 Rfe8 21.Ne2 +/-Kramnikaze wrote on 02/22/09 at 13:08:22:
Dear Sloughter:

I appreciate your hard work,but please spend more time with your engine to make conclusions:
I did only look at this line:
8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.Qe2 Bc6 13.Nf3 e4 14.Ne5 Ba4 15.d3 Qa5 ? Sorry to say,but this reminds me of Patzer sees a check,patzer plays a check.Much more to the point is:

15....Rc8!
and after:
16 Nc4 Bc2!
17 Qc2 ed3
white faces a tough defense for a draw.





Why Ng4 ? You should,by now, know that the optimal square is d5.So 10...Nd5! and if you play 11 Nh3 f5! with the idea of e4, and white is not a happy camper.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #324 - 02/22/09 at 17:04:58
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Sloughter, what a bad memory: you already gave 8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 where I already gave 9..Nd5 where we played some moves and you didn't find anything here. But no, you come back again with a "poor" move for Black with 9..Nxe4.

Then you give 8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 (your new try) where 9..Bg4 should not be very good. I would play 9..Be7 I think. You give 9..h6 too but I don't see Black should mix 8..Tb8 with 9..h6, 8..h6 may be better for that. About 8.Qf3 Bd7 or 8..Qd5 I don't care watching that as Black because it's clearly not the main defense and it may indeed be good for White. 8..cxd5 is known to be doubtful too.

I see you got a new idea here too: 8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6+ Nxc6 10.Qxc6+ Bd7 11.Qc4 0-0 12.Qe2 (almost a new move here), and Black has many moves to equalize. Even 12..Rc8 is still good here (as in the line 12.Nc3 Rc8) where it seems to me that the best move for White is still 13.Nc3 with the transposition (if 13.d3, 13..Bb4+! 14.c3 Bb5! with strong pressure).

Oh and don't forget about our game! It's your turn since a while!
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #323 - 02/22/09 at 17:00:47
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #322 - 02/22/09 at 16:57:24
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I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #321 - 02/22/09 at 16:19:15
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GM Alburt needs to tell this guy some truths and stop being so disingenuous no matter how much he likes those Pastrami sandwiches because there are better and more noble ways to make a buck in America than leading on some poor sap the way a buxom and desirous stripper leads on her pathetic cash cow.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #320 - 02/22/09 at 16:04:49
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8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bf1 O-O 10.d3 Ng4 11.Nh3 f5 12.Nc3 Ba6 13.Qd1 Bb4 14.Be2 e4 15.O-O exd3 16.Bxd3 Bxd3 17.cxd3 Qf6 18.Bf4 Rad8 19.Qc2 Qd4 20.Rfd1 Rfe8 21.Ne2 +/-Kramnikaze wrote on 02/22/09 at 13:08:22:
Dear Sloughter:

I appreciate your hard work,but please spend more time with your engine to make conclusions:
I did only look at this line:
8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.Qe2 Bc6 13.Nf3 e4 14.Ne5 Ba4 15.d3 Qa5 ? Sorry to say,but this reminds me of Patzer sees a check,patzer plays a check.Much more to the point is:

15....Rc8!
and after:
16 Nc4 Bc2!
17 Qc2 ed3
white faces a tough defense for a draw.

  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #319 - 02/22/09 at 13:08:22
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Dear Sloughter:

I appreciate your hard work,but please spend more time with your engine to make conclusions:
I did only look at this line:
8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.Qe2 Bc6 13.Nf3 e4 14.Ne5 Ba4 15.d3 Qa5 ? Sorry to say,but this reminds me of Patzer sees a check,patzer plays a check.Much more to the point is:

15....Rc8!
and after:
16 Nc4 Bc2!
17 Qc2 ed3
white faces a tough defense for a draw.
  
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sloughter
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #318 - 02/22/09 at 10:48:19
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4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5ch c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3 cxd5 9.Qxa8 Qd7
10.Qf3 Bd6 11.d3 Bb7 12.Qe2 Bxg2 13.Rg1 +/-

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 Bg4 10.Qg3 Bxe2 11.Qxe5ch Be7 12.Qxe2 +/-

8.Qf3 h6 9.Ne4 Nxe4 10.Qxe4 Qd6 11.Nc3 Rb8 12.Be2 Be6 13.O-O +/-

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.d3 Nb4 12.Bd1 Be6 13.Nbc3 +/-

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 h6 10.Ne4 Nd5 11.a3 Nf4 12.d3 Nxe2 13.Qxe2 +/-

8.Qf3 Bd7 9.Be2 Bd6 10.Nc3 Bg4 11.Qe3 Nd5 12.Nxd5 Bxe2 13.Nc3 Bg4 14.Nge4 O-O 15.Nxd6 Qxd6 16.Qg3 Be6 17.d3 f5 18.O-O f4 19.Ne4 +/-

8.Qf3 Qd5 9.Qxd5 Nxd5 10.Bf1 Nb4 11.Na3 f6 12.Ne4 Be6 13.b3 Bf5 14.f3 Rd8 15.c3 Nd3ch (Nd5 16.Nc4 Nxc4 17.Bxc4 +/=) 16.Bxd3 Rxd3 17.Ke2 Rd7 18.d3 Nb7 19.Nc4 Nc5 20.Rd1 Ne6 21.Be3 +/=

8.Qf3 Qd5 9.Qxd5 Nxd5 10.Bf1 Rb8 11.a3 Be7 12.Ne4 f5 13.Nec3 Nb7 14.d3 Nc5 15.Nd2 Bf6 16.Nc4 Nxc3 17.bxc3 Be6 18.Be3 Na4 19.d4 Bxc4 20.Bxc4 Nxc3 21.dxe5 Bxe5 22.O-O Kd7 (Rb7 Rae1 +/=) 23.Bxa7 Rb2 24.Bd3 g6 25.Be3 +/=

8.Qf3 Rb8 9.Be2 h6 10.Ne4 Nxe4 11.Qxe4 Qd5 12.Nc3 Qxe4 13.Nxe4 Be6 (f5 14.Nc3 Be6 15.d3 g5 16.h4 g4 h5 +/=) 14.d3 f5 15.Nc3 g5 16.h4 g4 17.h5 Kd7 18.f3 gxf3 (g3 19.f4 Bd6 20.fxe5 Bxe5 21.Bf3 Be7 22.Nd1 +/=) 19.Bxf3 Nb7 20.Kd1 Bc5 21.Re1 Bd4 22.Be3 c5 23.Kc1 Nd8 24.Nd1 Bxe3ch 25.Rxe3 Nf7 unclear to +/=

8.Qf3 Be7 9.Bxc6ch Nxc6 10.Qxc6ch Bd7 11.Qc4 O-O 12.Qe2 Bc6 13.Nf3 e4 14.Ne5 Ba4 15.d3 Qa5ch 16.Nc3 Bb4 17.O-O +/=sloughter wrote on 02/19/09 at 23:43:16:
Here is the latest analysis of the Ulvestad and the Fritz:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.cxd4 bxc4 7.Qe2 Qd5 8.f4 e4 9.Nc3 Qxc6 10.Ngxe4 +/=

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.cxd4 bxc4 8.dxe5 Nxd5 9.Qf3 Qd7 10.O-O +/=

sloughter wrote on 02/10/09 at 12:43:27:
Here is the definitive analysis and practical play in the 8.Nh3 variation. From a book I published in 1999, 

"Theory pretty much ends with the move sequence 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Nh3 although the author and GM Alburt analyzed this variation in detail in EMPIRE CHESS, Winter 1988 p.6. We also recognize the contributions of ICM van der Tak, NM Alon Bochman, FM Craig Mar and the pretty tactical shot pointed out by Pete Tamburro (8...Bg4 9.Qxg4?? (Bb5ch!) Nc2ch 9.Kd1?? Nce3ch! -+), and minor computer-assessed analysis of 8.Nh3 Bxh3 by NM Eric Schiller."

"GM's Alburt's concept, first recognized in the game Alburt-Gulko, USSR Student Cham., Dubna, 1970 is a profound idea that places the onus on Black to equalize. The first point is that White prepares to exhange off a pair of Knights after say Ne6/Nef4. This is obviously not possible in the variation 8.Ne4 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nef4 when Black has compensation. We now follow Alburt-Gulko: 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Bxd7ch; we prefer 10.Qa4 see below: 10...Qd7 11.O-O Be7 12.Qe2 Bf6?! 13.d3 (d4 +/=) O-O 14,Ba3 Rfe8. Black has a variety of alternatives to 8...Ne6 e.g. 8...Nc6 9.Bxb5 +/- or 8...Bg4 9.Bxb5ch Nxb5 10.Qxg4 or 8...Nf5 which leaves the Knight on a peculiar square and, of course, 9.Bxb5ch wins a pawn. This narrows the choices to 8.Nh3 Bxh3!? and 8...Ne6.  If 8...Bxh3 9.cxd4 (gxh3 Qh4! with comp: ICM van der Tak) 9...Bd7 (To defend b5). If now 10.dxe5 +/= GM Alburt. Black only has partial compensation for the pawn, but, NM Eric Schiller maintains that Black is okay after 10...Qh4. This is difficult to accept after 10.Nc3! White hits d5 and bv5; if 11...Nxc3 12.dxc3 Qe4ch 13.Qe2 +/-. and on 11...c6 12.Nxd5 cxd5 13.Be2 Qg5 14.O-O Qxe5? 15.Re1 looks pretty good for White. Other tries like 10...Nb4 or Be7 don't promise Black very much either.

"Thus the stem game, Alburt-Gulko appears to have revealed the main line very early. The key continuation for White appears to be 8.Nh3 Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4!. White either forces Black to accept an inferior middlegame or an inferior endgame: 10...Nb6 11.Bd7ch Nxd7 12.d4 exd4 13.cxd4 Be7 14.Nc3 O-O 15.d5 +/=. 

"Black avoids an endgame but is not out of the woods yet; with best play, White should win this. There are a host of similar endings Black can achieve a pawn down, with no real compensation for the pawn. Obviously, this is unacceptable to the majority of chess players.

Black can also try 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Nxd7 12.O-O Be7 13.d4 +/= Black is shy of equality. The decision to enter an endgame is only marginally better: 8...Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 Nc5 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.Qxd7ch Kxd7 13.d4! (Ke2 e4 14.Na3 Nd3 15.Nc2 Nd5f4ch 16.Nxf4 Nxf4ch 17.Ke3 Nd3: and NM Bochman wonders if White can dig out) 13...exd4 14.cxd4 (O-O dxc3 =) 15.Nc3! Nxd4 (Nb4 16.d5 +/- or Nxc3 16.bxc3 +/- Evaluations by GM Alburt) 16.Nxd5 Nc2ch 17.Kd1 Nxa1 18.Bd2! +/= (GM Alburt)

"One final try is 10.Qa4 Bc5 but 11.d3 f5 +/= (GM Alburt)" There doesn't appear to be any simple pathway to equality for Black here.sloughter wrote on 02/08/09 at 21:10:54:
In order to keep the analyzed lines in one place, here is a way to avoid the complicatons of 8.Ne4 Ne6 i.e. 8.Nh3!? Bxh3 (Ne6 9.Bxb5ch Bd7 10.Qa4 & White is better than the 8.Ne4 line because he can oppose Knights when one of them gets to f4) 9.cxd4! Bd7 10.dxe5 +/= (I'll have to check my analysis here; Black may have a draw by repetition in one of the subvariations). So far, not one menber of this post has tried to engage in an analytical battle over even one variation. Since many are controversial e.g. my latest attempt at an advantage against 8.Ne4 Ne6!sloughter wrote on 02/01/09 at 20:00:15:
In order for the post to have any impact on the development of theory, it is necessary to sort the wheat from the chaff. Here is the analysis posted to date, as well as, original analysis not quoted to date. It is up to the members of the post, if they are so inclined, to accept, modify, or ignore this material in the hope of providing the basis for additional theory and practical play. 

Wilkes-Barre/Traxler

    4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 (or d6 or Qe8) 7.Bxc6 dxc6 (or bxc6) 8.Nf3 Kf7 (Nxe4 9.Qe2 +/-) 9.d3 +/-

Fried Liver from Pincus

    4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nxd5 6.d4 Bb4ch 7.c3 Be7 8.Nxf7 Kxf7 9.Qf3ch Ke6 10.O-O!

A) 10...Na5 11.Bd3 Bf6 12.Re1 Nc6 13.Be4 g5?! 14.c4 Nxd4 15.cxd5ch Kf7 16.Qd3 Kg7 17.Nc3 Bd7 18.Be3 Rc8 19.Rad1 a6 20.Rd2+/-

B) 10...b5 11.Bxb5 Bb7 12.Bxc6 Bxc6 13.c4 Rf8 (Nb4 14.d5ch Nxd5 15.Rd1 +-) 14.cxd5ch Bxd5 15.Qe2 +-

C) 10...g6 11.Qe4 Rf8 12.f4 Rb8 13.Bb3 a5 14.fxe5 Rxf1ch 15.Kxf1 a4 16.Qg4ch Kf7 17.Qf3ch Kg7 18.Bxd5 +-

Berliner Variation (Ulvestad move order)

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.dxc6 Bc5 9.Be2 +/=
                                                           8.dxc6 Qd5 9.Qf3 +/=

5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Ne6 (Tentative) 9.d4 exd4 10.Bxb5ch Bd7 11.Bxd7ch Qxd7 12.O-O dxc3 13.Nbxc3 Nxc3 14.bxc3 Qxd1 15.Rxd1 f5 16.Ng5 Nxg5 17.Bxg5 Bd6 18.Rd5 O-O 19.Rad1+/=

Berliner Variation:

4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Nd4 6.c3 b5 7.Bf1 Nxd5 8.Ne4 Qh4 9.Ng3 Bg4 10.f3 e4 11.cxd4 Bd6 12.Qe2 Be6 (12...O-O 13.fxg4 Bxg3ch 14.Kd1 +-; 12...Bxg3ch 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.Qxb5ch Bd7 15.Qxd5 +/-) 13.Nc3 (13.Qf2+/-) 13...Nxc3 14.dxc3 Bxg3ch 15.hxg3 Qxh1 16.Qxb5ch Kf8 17.fxe4 +-

The 5...Na5 material will be provided in a separate postMarkovich wrote on 02/01/09 at 17:25:08:
TN wrote on 02/01/09 at 08:48:11:
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=dx-J71v3JkU

The video highlights one of several holes in your childish attempt at refutation.


May I suggest that we all remain civil?  Even chilldish, even obnoxious attempts are deserving of respect.  We all love chess.





  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #317 - 02/22/09 at 02:10:15
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I think Sloughter has more "cooks" and "innovations" in store for us.
« Last Edit: 02/22/09 at 10:35:04 by ghenghisclown »  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #316 - 02/21/09 at 01:05:40
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As this is something of an intermission, let's all go to the lobby and ask each other questions like 'How does Black complicate the position to generate winning chances after e4 e5 Nf3 Nc6 Bb5 a6 Ba4 Nf6 0-0 b5 Bb3 Bc5 d3?' and 'did you read Moody's first? It got a rave review from the fellow who wrote that dreadful pamphlet on the Marshall Attack'.

 Curtain is going up, time to retake our seats.
  
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #315 - 02/21/09 at 00:55:22
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I love a good stoning.



Where is the concession stand?
  
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #314 - 02/21/09 at 00:48:51
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'This guy is for real?'

Apparently so. 

It's amusing that such a piece of performance art can attract 5 posts in only half an hour.
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #313 - 02/21/09 at 00:44:31
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Roger Williamson wrote on 02/21/09 at 00:38:50:


I had assumed this thread was a piece of performance art.



It is.

  
I know I've made some very poor decisions recently, but I can give you my complete assurance that my work will be back to normal. I've still got the greatest enthusiasm and confidence in the mission.
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Re: refutation of 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6?
Reply #312 - 02/21/09 at 00:38:50
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This guy is for real?

I had assumed this thread was a piece of performance art.
  
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