Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6. (Read 11190 times)
MarinFan
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #14 - 03/05/09 at 10:48:58
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In one of my recent lessons asked Yelena Dembo what she thought of Kasparov's prefence for 12...h5, in Ne8 line and comparison with Nd7 line. After 12...g5 13g4 in both lines Yelena thought black chould acheive good positions. So the question of why play h5 doesn't look so obvious.
  
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James Vigus
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #13 - 02/22/09 at 16:48:04
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Interesting indeed, and is it the case that White is giving up on Korchnoi's 13 a4 nowadays, in favour of (Korchnoi's!) 13 Rc1? I suppose there is a lot still to discover here. In 'Mastering the Chess Openings' 2 John Watson still seems to rate 13 a4 ('the sophisticated assault') quite highly. But several things puzzle me here. 

First there is the game Summerscale-Snape, also in the chesspub archives where the notes imply a smooth win for White - yet there the blunt ...Rf6-h6 plan looks quite good, and isn't 22...g4 an obvious improvement? 

Then there is the difference between 9...Nd7 and 9...Ne8. Kasparov has a lot of material on the latter move in 'My Great Predecessors 5'. After 9...Ne8 10 Be3 f5 11 f3 f4 12 Bf2 Kasparov prefers 12...h5 to 12...g5, because against the latter, 13 g4! is strong. So my question is: why is 13 g4 not considered so great - at least not good enough to justify ...h5 by Black - in the analogous position with Black's knight on d7 rather than e8? A very basic question for someone who really knows these lines, no doubt...

Again: 9...Ne8 10 Be3 f5 11 f3 f4 12 Bf2 h5 13 c5 g5 14 a4 Ng6 15 a5. Here Kasparov calls 15...dxc5 'insufficient' because of 16 Bxc5 Nd6 17 Nd3 Rf7 18 a6 b6 19 Bxd6! (Korchnoi-Nemet, Switzerland 1994) - a key positional idea indeed, as White is likely to be able force the exchange of Black's light-squared bishop for a knight, leaving his light-squared bishop dominating the slumberer on g7. However, isn't 17...a6 just fine for Black? - and so I wonder why Korchnoi didn't advance the a-pawn already on move 17. Without having played through lots of Korchnoi games yet,  I don't see why Black should have any problems with a knight established on d6. 

Last question: does Markos's new book illuminate any of these (to this non-initiate) mysteriously subtle matters of correct move-order?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #12 - 01/12/09 at 02:11:23
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jons wrote on 01/11/09 at 23:56:17:
Thanks for the reply. Do you have some link to your coverage of 13...Rf6? I am still looking (together with deep Fritz 11) for some way out with black in this theoretical variation. Do you have some idea, what black shall do?


Its not a free service, you will need to subscribe to the KID section at chesspublishing.com.

Regards,

Toppy Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #11 - 01/11/09 at 23:56:17
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Thanks for the reply. Do you have some link to your coverage of 13...Rf6? I am still looking (together with deep Fritz 11) for some way out with black in this theoretical variation. Do you have some idea, what black shall do?
  
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IMRichardPalliser
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #10 - 01/10/09 at 09:45:57
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Interesting stuff! I've actually given 13 Rc1 a bit of coverage in the latest King's Indian update: 13...Rf6 and 13...Ng6 look like better tries than 13...a6 at least currently!
  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #9 - 01/05/09 at 11:47:33
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The move order which I consider is: 

1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Rc1 Rf6 14.Nd3!? Rh6 15.c5 a6 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 Ne6 20.Ncd5 Nxd5 21.Nxd5 Kh8 22.Bc4!


So, the move 15...a6 comes in time. I think this is almost the critical line in this variation. If there is some good defense (maybe after 22...Rb8) than this variation is playable otherwise...

Interesting is that also some good chessplayers have played Qe8 without a6. For example Cheparinov in 2004, when he was younger against not very good player played 15...Qe8 and oponent answered 16.Be1? and finally quite quickly lost. But in my opinion 16.Nb5 Qe8 17.h4! just wins the game.
  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #8 - 01/04/09 at 20:33:05
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jons wrote on 01/04/09 at 16:50:50:


1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Nd3 Rf6 14.c5 Rh6 15.Rc1 a6 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 Ne6 20.Ncd5 Nxd5 21.Nxd5 Kh8 22.Bc4!


In conclusion I do not still feel happy about these variations. Maybe anyone has another ideas or totally different variations? 



Even though this line was tested by a very young Radjabov it looks dubious for Black after the direct 15.cxd6 (Instead of 15.Rc1) cxd6 16.Nb5! looks quite good for White.

Toppy Smiley 
  

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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #7 - 01/04/09 at 16:50:50
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I still think that the move Bc4 in any variation is very strong and black has problems Sad

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Nd3 Rf6 14.c5 Rh6 15.Rc1 a6 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 Ne6 20.Ncd5 Nxd5 21.Nxd5 Kh8 22.Bc4!

If black plays 22...Qf7 I can not find equality after prophylactic move 23.Bg1! preventing Nd4. I find this a hard position for black, what to do? If 22.Bc4 Qf7 23. Bg1 Rb8!? 24.b4 Qa4  I would say almost is decissive +/-

If black plays 22...Rb8!? let me continue your proposed variation. 23.b4 Qxc6?! (24.Ba7? Qe8 with the idea 25.Bxb8 Qh5 26.h3 Nd4 27.Kg1 Bxh3=) 24.Ne7! (It is necessary to change blacks bishop on c8!) 24...Qd7 25.Nxc8 Qxc8 26.Qa4 and eventually white takes on a6. Black is worse, but this still deserves to be analyzed more deeply, maybe there is a way to escape with a draw...

Anyway thanks for analysis and suggestions!!

In conclusion I do not still feel happy about these variations. Maybe anyone has another ideas or totally different variations? 



  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #6 - 01/03/09 at 18:54:42
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jons wrote on 01/02/09 at 10:47:08:
Thanks a lot! I have not seen this game although I have Mega database 2009 and so on! You might not believe me, but I also have found the same move, that is Kh8!,  few hours ago Smiley) But one move earlier Smiley

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Nd3 Rf6 14.c5 Rh6 15.Rc1 a6 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 Ne6 20.Ncd5 Kh8!

I think it is better to do this move here, because if 21.Nxe7 Qxe7 22.Nd5 then 22...Qf7 and black has tempo in comparison with game of Radja.

So white shall choose I guess something like 21.Bc4!? I suppose Rogovski should also have played maybe 22.Bc4, but anyway thanks for indicating this game! It really helped me a lot!

Best, Jons

I think the game continuation is better than the proposal of 20...Kh8 - after 20...e6 20.Ncd5 Nd5! 21.Nd5 Kh8! Black has nothing to worry about - if White plays 22.Bc4 then we just follow the play from Radjabov with 22...Qf7 and the idea of ...Nd4 with equality (or you may burn your brain with: 22...Rb8 (attacking b2) 23.b4!? Qc6!? (greedy but perhaps not so bad) 24.Ba7!? Ra8 25.Nb6!? cb6 and now following the computer with 26.Bd5 Qe8 27.Ba8 Bd7 28.Bd5 Qh5 29.h3 Nd4 30.Bxb6 Bxh3 31.Kg1 Bd7 when I have no idea whats going on Grin)
  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #5 - 01/03/09 at 17:25:39
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Still, after 20.Ncd5 Kh8!? 21.Bc4!? i can not see what black can do Sad Radajbov had maybe some luck in his game. Maybe anyone has another idea?

THANKS!
  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #4 - 01/02/09 at 10:47:08
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Thanks a lot! I have not seen this game although I have Mega database 2009 and so on! You might not believe me, but I also have found the same move, that is Kh8!,  few hours ago Smiley) But one move earlier Smiley

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Nd3 Rf6 14.c5 Rh6 15.Rc1 a6 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 Ne6 20.Ncd5 Kh8!

I think it is better to do this move here, because if 21.Nxe7 Qxe7 22.Nd5 then 22...Qf7 and black has tempo in comparison with game of Radja.

So white shall choose I guess something like 21.Bc4!? I suppose Rogovski should also have played maybe 22.Bc4, but anyway thanks for indicating this game! It really helped me a lot!

Best, Jons
  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #3 - 01/02/09 at 10:19:31
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jons wrote on 01/02/09 at 09:23:43:
If you mean 13.Rc1 Rf6 14.Nd3!? Rh6 15.c5 Nxc5? then after 16.Nxc5 dxc5 17.Bxc5 or 17.Qb3 I think it is very bad, almost lost for black   Undecided Or do you have some interesting idea here?
Best, Jons

Your right - 15...Nc5 is simply bad!

But did you look at this game:

[Event "Alushta Spring"]
[Site "Alushta"]
[Date "2001.03.08"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Rogovski,Vladimir"]
[Black "Radjabov,Teimour"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "E99"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Nd3 Rf6 14.c5 Rh6 15.Rc1 a6 (transposing!) 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 Ne6 20.Ncd5 Nxd5 21.Nxd5 Kh8 22.b4 Qf7 23.Qd3 Nd4 24.Bd1 Be6 25.Re1 Rf8 26.Qxa6 g4 27.fxg4 f3 28.Bg3 Bxg4 29.Qd3 fxg2+ 30.Kxg2 Nf3 31.Rf1 Bh3+ 32.Kh1 Bxf1 33.Qxf1 Qg6 34.Qg2 Nxh2 35.Bxh2 Rxh2+ 36.Kxh2 Qh6+ 0-1

  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #2 - 01/02/09 at 09:23:43
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If you mean 13.Rc1 Rf6 14.Nd3!? Rh6 15.c5 Nxc5? then after 16.Nxc5 dxc5 17.Bxc5 or 17.Qb3 I think it is very bad, almost lost for black   Undecided Or do you have some interesting idea here?
Best, Jons
  
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Re: Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
Reply #1 - 01/02/09 at 07:07:12
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What's wrong with 15...Nc5?
  
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Classical King's indian with 10.Be3, 13.Rc1 Rf6.
01/01/09 at 23:41:35
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I have a big problem with the following theoretical line:
1.d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 0-0 6.Be2 e5 7.0-0 Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.Ne1 Nd7 10.Be3 f5 11.f3 f4 12.Bf2 g5 13.Rc1 Rf6 and here 14.Nd3!?

I have found most games with the sacrifice 14.c5!?, but there are quite a few games with the move 14.Nd3 which I found better than 14.c5. 

The problem is - after 14.Nd3 Rh6 15.c5 black should play 15...a6. I have analysed (with deep Fritz 11) a lot variation 15...Qe8, all seems to me to be lost for black (after 16.Nb5). Therefore 14.Nd3 Rh6 15.c5 a6 and now 16.c6! I think is a big disaster for black. I do not see much what to do. Can anyone HELP?  Undecided

For example: 14.Nd3 Rh6 15.c5 a6 16.c6 bxc6 17.dxc6 Nf8 18.Nb4 Qe8 19.Kh1 and I can not find good moves from black (19...Qh5 20.Bg1 Ne6 21.Ncd5 and what now?)

Thanks and best regards,
Jons
  
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