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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 182204 times)
Hadron
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #137 - 02/27/09 at 21:57:05
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ArKheiN wrote on 02/27/09 at 14:47:16:
But a3 is not thematic in the BDG...

Maybe not. I will be the first to say I am not a big fan of Lev's waffling but I have read some of his detailed analyses on various chess subjects and the puffery a side, his analysis was pretty good. I don't know really but maybe a3 in the circumstances he mentioned might be worth a look?
Undecided
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #136 - 02/27/09 at 19:31:25
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The move ...c6 helps Black to cover the d5 square, which is important as d4-d5 is a dangerous pawn push in some lines of the BDG.  In addition, it covers against any dangerous Qf3 ideas with double attacks on b7 and f7, and takes the sting out of many g4/Bg2 lines (as we've just seen).  Also, delaying ...e6 makes Bc1-g5 less strong.

So there are, in fact, perfectly good tactical and positional reasons for Black playing an early ...c6 here. 

Indeed, the only lines where I'm not sure that White has a pawn's worth of compensation are the ones with an early ...c6, namely 4...c6 (if White isn't happy with equality after 5.Nxe4), 5...c6, and 5...Bf5 with the idea 6.Ne5 c6.   If you like your g2-g4 lines, then I think the idea still works against 5...Bg4- 6.h3 Bh5 (or 6...Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4!?) 7.g4 Bg6 8.Ne5.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #135 - 02/27/09 at 14:47:16
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5..c6 is not a waste of tempo, that's a part of Black's plan, in their construction of the fortress. But a3 is not thematic in the BDG...
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #134 - 02/27/09 at 14:10:34
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Waste of tempo, you say? Well, 5...c6 is a waste of tempo too!
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #133 - 02/27/09 at 12:08:39
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Uruk, I believe that 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5 9.Ne4 is playable for White but may be =/+, anyway that's not the funniest line to play as White here. But 6..c6 and 7..Be6, a good idea, is really rarely played. It's maybe played 1 game /1000 even in the 5..Bf5 6.Ne5 line. If that was 1 game/2 I would have stopped the BDG quickly (not because I think I am lost but because I have to fight to equalize without much fun here) but that's still not the case. And there is not much alternatives for White at this point. 6.Ne5 c6 7.Bc4 e6 is a transposition into a well-known line, =/+ as well. So there is only 6.Bd3, an interesting move (I once faced that idea where I was Black in a corr game, and I didn't manage to win after my ..Bxd3). But I think 6..Bg6 to be more precise than 6..Bxd3. 6.Ne5 always has been my favourite move, and the type of play of 6.Ne5 e6 was one of my favourite line of the whole BDG, so I am not sure I would like to play 6.Bd3 now.

My conclusion: I may continue to play the BDG until people will begin to play the boring lines more often, but for the moment I have still fun and quite good winning percent.
  
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ArKheiN
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #132 - 02/27/09 at 06:31:41
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I am not interested because I can't believe a move like a3 can work here. I don't see the idea of the move. Just a waste of tempo it seems to be for me.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #131 - 02/27/09 at 03:55:03
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I have an article published in BDG World #79, August-October 1997, but cannot attach it here. It is called "Defeating the Ziegler, O'Kelly, Teichmann Defenses and Caro-Kann Transpositions with a3!"

Anyone interested? I will email you the four-page article. Here the maximum attachment size is 50 KB. My article is much larger than that.

  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #130 - 02/26/09 at 23:58:28
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I would find it surprising indeed if White's compensation were sufficient after 1. d4 d5 2. e4 de 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 ef 5. Nxf3 c6 6. Bc4 Bf5 7. Bd3.  Actually I would find it surprising if it were even close to being sufficient.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #129 - 02/26/09 at 22:40:55
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Aye, and I can't find any improvements for White in this line.  Thus, unless someone else can, either 5...Bf5 is better for Black (though not winning: =+ and -/+ are two different assessments) or 6.Bd3!? may be the best way forward.  Black can indeed try 6...Bg6 in this position, when a sample continuation is 7.Qe2 c6 8.Bf4 e6 9.0-0, or perhaps 9.Bxg6 hxg6 10.0-0-0.  

Again thanks to Stefan Buecker for inspiring this idea via his suggestion of 4...c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 and then the surprising 7.Bd3.  If that is one of White's better moves in this position then surely the continuation 5...Bf5 6.Bd3 can't be bad.

Whether White has enough here is debatable, but I certainly prefer White's chances relative to Uruk's line, which looks like a solid =+.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #128 - 02/26/09 at 22:07:07
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I like Uruk's 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bf5 6.Ne5 c6 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5. This is similar to the sound and solid line 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qa5 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 c6 6.Ne5 Be6. Comparing teaches us that White basically has given up a pawn to gain some space (pawn g5) and for a halfopen f-file. That does not look enough to me.
  

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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #127 - 02/26/09 at 21:44:46
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@Dragan Alas, I don't know how it can be a Sicilian. But that line is almost +/-, not the best thing Black can get here...

1.d4 d5 2.e4 c5?! I see 3 responses. 3.dxc5, 3.exd5 and 3.Nc3!? dxe4 4.d5 with a reversed Albin. But I like the simple 3.dxc5 and usually Black play like this here: 3..d4 4.Nf3 Bg4 5.c3 Nc6 6.Bb5 and White should stay a pawn up with the pair of bishop and queens exchanged.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #126 - 02/26/09 at 21:37:01
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Greetings,

Pardon the off-the-current-point-in-this-topic comment...

I was puzzled by the fact that all seem to assume that one has to accept the gambit (I hope Gambit doesn't read this...!).

On facing this opening, I normally transpose to a Sicilian - 1. d4 d5 2. e4, and now 2... c5.

I'm not sure how BDGers take to being denied their normal game - I'd be interested to hear what you all think.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #125 - 02/26/09 at 21:06:27
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So do we agree that on 4...c6 White has a drawing path (5.Ne4),
whereas on 4...ef! 5.Nf3 Bf5 we don't really see one.

I see also no reason to prefer ...c6 on the fifth.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #124 - 02/26/09 at 20:19:53
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@Markovitch: if you see the hour of posting you will see I posted 3 min after you, so my post was intended to Uruk.

@Uruk: 7.g4 Be6 8.g5 Nd5, yes that's probably the best move, and I see that Rybka likes the Black side more, that's mean that White's position is harder to play to keep the balance. 9.Ne4 Nd7 10.Nxd7 Qxd7 11.Nc5 Qd6 has been played. That game alone is not sufficient to judge the whole line, but ok I might add that line in my not so big list of possible =/+.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #123 - 02/26/09 at 18:46:13
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@ MNb: Many thanks, the first link is extremely useful, let's call it [1]. So I re-invented the wheel, and 8.Ng5 is called the "Alchemy Variation". Nevertheless, let me add a few remarks to the variations (a) to (c) which I gave above.

(a) Remembering the old 8.Ne5 Bxc2 9.Nxf7 lines, I only regocnized that here instead of transposing (9.Nxf7), the move 9.Qe2! was good. Thanks to your hint [1], now I see how much work on 9.Qe2! was already done. But 11.Rxf6! wasn't mentioned yet, at least not in [1].

(b) shouldn't be too critical. 

(c) 8...Bg6! 9.Ne2. Here the reply 9...c5 [Leisebein] 10.c3 had already been analyzed in [1]. It is difficult to assess the line. But in 10.Be3!? (not in [1]) White also has an alternative, e. g. 10...Nc6 11.Nf4 cxd4 12.Bf2!? Bf5 13.Re1 Be7 14.Nxf7 Kxf7 15.Nxe6 Bxe6 16.Rxe6 Kf8 17.Qf3, and Black's task isn't too easy. 

The move I missed, 9...Bd6! (main line in both [1] and the other info), looks indeed best and comes close to being a refutation. After 10.Nf4 Bxf4 11.Bxf4 Nd5 12.Bc1 White has active pieces, but against careful defense it must be =+ or worse. Practical chances for White, but insufficient for corr. chess.

12.Bd2, discussed in [1], allows some tricks (12...h6? 13. Nxe6!), but is worse in some other respects, so it cannot be recommended. 

12.Qd2 0-0 13.Bg3 might be a little worse than the main line 12.Bc1. 

More interesting, since it includes several tricks: 12.Qg4 (instead of 12.Bc1) 12...0-0! (12...Bf5 13.Qg3 h6? 14.Nxe6!, or 12...Nxf4? 13.Qxf4 0-0 14.Nxe6!) 13.Qg3 (13.Be5 Ne3? 14.Nxf7!! Rxf7 15.Rxf7, but 13...Nd7! or 13...Bf5 are good for Black; 13.Rae1 Bxc2? 14.Be5! Bf5 15.Qg3 g6 16.Nxh7!; 13...Nd7 etc.) 13...Nxf4 (13...Bxc2? 14.Be5! Bg6 15.Bxg7! Kxg7 16.Rxf7+ +-) 14.Rxf4 Nd7 (14...Bxc2? 15.Nxf7 Rxf7 16.Bxe6 +-) 15.Raf1 Nf6, but again there is no full compensation for the pawn.  
  
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