ChessPub Forum - Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit

MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #167 - 03/10/09 at 02:36:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gambit wrote on 03/09/09 at 03:13:51: I have not seen you show one iota of analyses after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 that demonstrates your viewpoint. And what exactly was your contribution on 4...c6 and 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 c6 again? Nothing more than the boring macho-talk about silicons and ICC-challenges.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Uruk Senior Member Offline Posts: 351 Joined: 02/03/09	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #166 - 03/10/09 at 00:28:34	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gambit wrote on 03/09/09 at 03:13:51: I have not seen you show one iota of analyses after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 that demonstrates your viewpoint. Unsurprising, if you have read nothing of this thread. We (some fans of the gambit & I) came to the conclusion that 1.d4 d5 2.e4 de4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 ef3 5.Nf3 Bf5 6.Bc4 e6 is unsufficient for White. And 6.Ne5 is simply unmotivated. Gambit wrote on 03/09/09 at 03:13:51: Again, I challenge you to an over-the-board match on the Internet Chess Club, 40 moves/2 hours, SD/60. Or if you prefer, Game/90 minutes. The debate has been here, public, for 12 pages. Don't run away.


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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #165 - 03/09/09 at 21:16:08	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dude, sssthepro challenged me to a honest match, and I accepted. Which is more than I can say for the cowardly Uruk, who chickened out of a challenge.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #164 - 03/09/09 at 20:13:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gambit wrote on 03/09/09 at 03:13:51: [quote author=uruk link=1231025114/150#159 date=1236557028] Again, I challenge you to an over-the-board match on the Internet Chess Club, 40 moves/2 hours, SD/60. Or if you prefer, Game/90 minutes. Oh no! The peace of the veldt is once again shattered by the bellow of the dread Zilbermint!

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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sssthepro Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 439 Joined: 12/16/06	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #163 - 03/09/09 at 13:33:17	Post Tools	Print Post
	I msged you


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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #162 - 03/09/09 at 11:03:38	Post Tools	Print Post
	sssthepro wrote on 03/09/09 at 09:37:41: I dont have an account on ICC. I challenge you to play on Playchess instead. And how about 5 min? That sounds good to me. What is your handle?


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sssthepro Senior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 439 Joined: 12/16/06	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #161 - 03/09/09 at 09:37:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	I dont have an account on ICC. I challenge you to play on Playchess instead. And how about 5 min?


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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #160 - 03/09/09 at 03:13:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	Uruk wrote on 03/09/09 at 00:03:48: You have something that could overturn the verdict? Just say it. Unless it's 6.a3. In that case the move's brute force is self-explanatory. Uruk, what variation in the BDG are you talking about? The Gunderam Defense, 5...Bf5? The Teichmann, 5...Bg4? The Euwe, 5...e6? The Bogoljubow, 5...g6? Or the Vienna, 4...Bf5? I have not seen you show one iota of analyses after 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 that demonstrates your viewpoint. What is more, you refuse to play a honest over-the-board match, under tournament conditions, on Internet Chess Club. Why is that, Uruk? Again, I challenge you to an over-the-board match on the Internet Chess Club, 40 moves/2 hours, SD/60. Or if you prefer, Game/90 minutes.


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Uruk Senior Member Offline Posts: 351 Joined: 02/03/09	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #159 - 03/09/09 at 00:03:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	You have something that could overturn the verdict? Just say it. Unless it's 6.a3. In that case the move's brute force is self-explanatory.


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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #158 - 03/06/09 at 00:08:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Uruk wrote on 03/04/09 at 21:12:41: I didn't mean this particular variation but the gambit in general. White is White but it would have been spectacular to see him burn his own center and get out alive. Really, Uruk? How about you and I play a couple of games, with Game/90 time control, on the Internet Chess Club? No, make it 40/2, SD/60. See what you know about playing the black side of the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit?


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Uruk Senior Member Offline Posts: 351 Joined: 02/03/09	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #157 - 03/04/09 at 21:12:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	I didn't mean this particular variation but the gambit in general. White is White but it would have been spectacular to see him burn his own center and get out alive.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #156 - 03/04/09 at 20:32:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	Why was it to be expected? Actually after 10...Qd7 Black may be in trouble. And 10...Qd6 looks risky at first sight, because it invites Bf4.


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Uruk Senior Member Offline Posts: 351 Joined: 02/03/09	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #155 - 03/04/09 at 12:30:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ok. This one we put quickly enough in the scrap heap, but it was to be expected.


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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #154 - 03/04/09 at 11:21:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Apparently 10...Qd6 settles the situation: (a) On 11.Qe2 both possible replies 11...Kf7 and 11...Kd7 look reliable. (b) 11.Bg5 Nbd7! (11...Qxe6 transposes to 10...Qd7, and 11...Kf7 allows 12.Bxf6 Qxe6 13.Be7+! or 12...gxf6 13.Ne4!) and Black seems to be safe, e. g. 12.Re1 (12.d5 cxd5 [or Kf7] 13.Nxd5 Kf7 etc.) 12...Kf7 13.Bf4 Qb4, and I don't see a good continuation (14.Qe2 Kg8 15.a3 Qa5). (c) 11.Re1 is relatively best, but still insufficient: 11...Kf7 12.Bf4 (12.Bg5 is line b) 12...Qd7 13.Nc7 Bd6 (Na6!?, but the text is simple and good) 14.Bxd6 Qxd6 15.Nxa8 Nbd7 followed by Rxa8. Black is better.


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Stefan Buecker

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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #153 - 03/03/09 at 04:22:59

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@OldGrizzly: The line 11...Nd5 12.Bc1 was said to be the main line, and 11...Nd5 seemed plausible at first. I had hoped that after 11...0-0 White might get new ideas (better than 11...Nd5 12.Bc1, when the retreat of the bishop costs time). Something like 11...0-0 12.Qd2 Nd5 13.Bg3, perhaps, or 12.Nf3 Nd5 13.Bg5. But I didn't check anything, and now your proposal 11...0-0! looks just strong.

SWJediknight wrote on 03/02/09 at 20:01:44:

How about the immediate sacrifice on e6? I haven't seen any references to it in that article or in this thread so far. (8.Ng5 Bg6) 9.Bxe6 fxe6 10.Nxe6 leaves Black a piece up for a pawn, but Black will be forced to forgo castling rights. After 10...Qd7 [...] 11.Bg5 Kf7 (11...Qxe6 12.Re1 Ne4 13.Qf3 Nxg5 14.Qg4 leaves Black with a rook and two pieces for the queen, but White maintains an attack; 13...Kd7 will leave Black's king exposed on the queenside) 12.d5 Be7 13.Qf3 is likely to net a second pawn for the piece, with unclear attacking chances. Fritz doesn't think White has full compensation, but Black's position will be difficult to play at least.

An inspiring idea! I've had (8.Ng5 Bg6) 9.Bxe6 fxe6 10.Nxe6 Qd7 11.Bg5 Qxe6 12.Re1 Ne4 on the board, but didn't really believe in it. However, you are right that the attack deserves attention. For example: 13.Qf3 Nxg5 14.Qg4 Kd7 15.Rxe6 Nxe6 16.Re1 Bf7 17.Qf5 Bg8

18.Kh1!! (stronger than the immediate 18.d5, which later allows the freeing Bc5+) 18...Na6 (another weird line: 18...g6 19.Qf3! followed by d5, =) 19.d5 cxd5 20.Qxd5+ Kc8 21.Rxe6 Nc7 22.Re8+ Nxe8 23.Qf5+ Kc7 24.Qxf8 Rd8 25.Nb5+ Kb8 26.h3 Rc8 27.Qf2 b6 28.Qf4+ Nc7 (28...Kb7 29.Qe4+) 29.Nxc7 Rxc7 30.Qf8+ Kb7 (30...Rc8 31.Qf4+ =) 31.Qf3+ Rc6 32.Qg4 Rc7 33.Qe4+ etc. draw.

Many side-lines remain to be checked, e. g. 13...Qf7 (maybe better than 13...Kd7). In any case the variation seems to be a lot of fun.

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