ChessPub Forum - Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit

flaviddude Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 329 Location: Australia Joined: 01/12/04 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Gallagher Reply #197 - 03/16/09 at 01:17:44	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 03/15/09 at 20:53:13: flaviddude wrote on 03/15/09 at 13:09:05: In "Beating the Anti-king's Indians Gallagher give a line for black using the Euwe Defence. I have a very complex secret line which I have not yet had the chance to try. However while checking Gallagher's analysis tonight a much more simple way of defusing his line. 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6. Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5 8. dxc5 Qa5 9. Qd2 Nbd7 up to here given by Gallager and now the surprise move 10. Nb5 If he wants black can swap queens. Qxd2+ 11. Kxd2 O-O 12. b4 in the final position material is even but the position is not drawish in my opinion. I have some experience in playing positions where both players have massive pawn majorities but where there are lots of pieces on the board. They tend to be difficult. What do other people think? What I think is that this is not very relevant because of 7...Nc6. And no, I don't trust LDZ's 8.0-0 for a second. White should try 7.Qd2, on which you have done excellent analysis. Whoops. I agree with you. The 7...Nc6 line is not pleasant for white after 7.Bd3 whereas black's results have been rubbish after 7.Qd2 Nc6. So I shall stay with 7.Qd2

	I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Gallagher Reply #196 - 03/15/09 at 20:53:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	flaviddude wrote on 03/15/09 at 13:09:05: In "Beating the Anti-king's Indians Gallagher give a line for black using the Euwe Defence. I have a very complex secret line which I have not yet had the chance to try. However while checking Gallagher's analysis tonight a much more simple way of defusing his line. 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6. Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5 8. dxc5 Qa5 9. Qd2 Nbd7 up to here given by Gallager and now the surprise move 10. Nb5 If he wants black can swap queens. Qxd2+ 11. Kxd2 O-O 12. b4 in the final position material is even but the position is not drawish in my opinion. I have some experience in playing positions where both players have massive pawn majorities but where there are lots of pieces on the board. They tend to be difficult. What do other people think? What I think is that this is not very relevant because of 7...Nc6. And no, I don't trust LDZ's 8.0-0 for a second. White should try 7.Qd2, on which you have done excellent analysis.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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ArKheiN God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 728 Location: Belgium Joined: 03/30/05	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #195 - 03/15/09 at 19:42:19	Post Tools	Print Post
	Davidflude, I have already said something about that line from Gallagher (with something like this 1. d4 Nf6 2. f3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. Nc3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6. Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5 8. dxc5 Qa5 9. O-O Qxc5+ 10. Kh1 Nbd7 11. Qe1 a6 12. Qh4 Qb4 13. Ne4), and I believe it's refuted by a strong White play, I have won some corr games in a very convincing style here.


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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #194 - 03/15/09 at 15:31:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	12...b6 13 cb6 Bb4+ 14 c3 Bc5 15 ba7 Ba7 16 Na7 Ra7 leaves the White king exposed.


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flaviddude Senior Member Offline I love ChessPublishing.com! Posts: 329 Location: Australia Joined: 01/12/04 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Gallagher Reply #193 - 03/15/09 at 13:09:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	In "Beating the Anti-king's Indians Gallagher give a line for black using the Euwe Defence. I have a very complex secret line which I have not yet had the chance to try. However while checking Gallagher's analysis tonight a much more simple way of defusing his line. 1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3 e6 6. Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3 c5 8. dxc5 Qa5 9. Qd2 Nbd7 up to here given by Gallager and now the surprise move 10. Nb5 If he wants black can swap queens. Qxd2+ 11. Kxd2 O-O 12. b4 in the final position material is even but the position is not drawish in my opinion. I have some experience in playing positions where both players have massive pawn majorities but where there are lots of pieces on the board. They tend to be difficult. What do other people think?

	I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #192 - 03/13/09 at 08:32:47	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 03/13/09 at 03:02:49: Some questions: what about A1) 7.g4 Nxg4 8.Nh4 g6 9.Nxf5 gxf5 10.h3 Nf6 11.Bg5 Nbd7!? 12.Qe2 Rg8 (e6 13.d5!?) 13.h4 h6; A2) 10.Bg5 (iso 10.h3) Rg8!? idea 11.Bh4 Ne3 and 12.Bxf7+ does not work anymore; B) 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 Bb4 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Ne4 Qh6 eg 12.c3 Bxe4 13.Qxe4 Bd6 ? Many thanks. To begin with your last line, in "B" White can try 12.a3 Bxe4 13.axb4!? Bxf3 14.Rxf3 Nd7 15.b5, unclear. The alternative 12.Ne5 is also unpleasant for Black. In A1, White seems to have have sufficient compensation after 14.Bxf6 Nxf6 15.0-0-0. In A2, to reach my original analysis, White can perhaps change the move order: 9.Bg5 (iso 9.Nxf5). Here Rg8 is useless, while 9...h6 10.Nxf5 hxg5?! (10...gxf5 returns to my analysis) 11.Qxg4 gxf5 12.Bxf7+ Kxf7 13.Qxf5+ Ke8 14.d5 Qd7 15.Qg6+ Kd8 16.0-0-0 Kc8 17.Rhf1 looks good for White. In the case of 9.Nxf5 gxf5 10.Bg5 Rg8, I had intended 11.Qd2, but then 11...Rxg5 12.Qxg5 Qxd4 13.Qxf5 e6 14.Bxe6 Qe3+ 15.Kf1 Qxe6 16.Re1 Ne3+ 17.Rxe3 Qxe3 18.Qc8+ Ke7 19.Rg1 Bh6 20.Qxb7+ Nd7 21.Qxa8 Qf3+ 22.Ke1 Be3 23.Ne2 Qd5 -+ resp. 23.Rf5 Bd2+ -+ must be a refutation.


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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #191 - 03/13/09 at 05:40:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	HTH, I tried sending you the article, but it came back. Something wrong with your email address.


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dmp4373 Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 99 Joined: 03/04/07	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #190 - 03/13/09 at 03:06:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	I don't know if it's been mentioned in this forum or not, at least I haven't noticed it yet, but Sawyers KEYBOOK III is now being sold in bookup format for $25 at bookup.com. Unfortunately there is no information on anything new it may contain.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #189 - 03/13/09 at 03:02:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Some questions: what about A1) 7.g4 Nxg4 8.Nh4 g6 9.Nxf5 gxf5 10.h3 Nf6 11.Bg5 Nbd7!? 12.Qe2 Rg8 (e6 13.d5!?) 13.h4 h6; A2) 10.Bg5 (iso 10.h3) Rg8!? idea 11.Bh4 Ne3 and 12.Bxf7+ does not work anymore; B) 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 Bb4 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Ne4 Qh6 eg 12.c3 Bxe4 13.Qxe4 Bd6 ?

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #188 - 03/13/09 at 00:07:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	SWJediknight wrote on 03/12/09 at 20:23:53: I think both sides can improve, for instance I doubt White has enough compensation after 16...Nd5, but 10.Nxf6+ immediately (instead of 10.Rf1) may improve for White [...] Thanks! "Both sides can improve" was more than I expected in a first reaction on 7.g4. Your idea 16...Nd5 followed by f6 and soon Qh5-e8 in fact improves Black's coordination. Instead of 16.0-0-0, perhaps 16.Rg1 h6 17.0-0-0 is a slight improvement, e. g. 17...0-0-0 (now 17...Nd5 18.Qf2 is less convincing) 18.Rdf1 Be8 19.Kb1. In line (c) 8...g6, after 13...Ke6 14.d5+ Kd7 I thought that White could hold: 15.Bf2 (15.Rd1 Nxd1 16.Qxf5+ Kc7 17.Qe5+ Kc8 18.Kxd1 Rh7 19.Qf5+ e6 20.Qxh7 Qxh4) 15...Nxc2+ (15...Nxd5 16.Bd4 Rg8 17.Nxd5 cxd5 18.Qf7 Rg5 19.h4 Rg2 20.0-0-0 Kc8 21.Bc5 e6 22.Bxf8 Qd7 23.Be7 Nc6 24.Qf8+), and here either 16.Ke2 Qe8 17.Qxf5+ e6 or 16.Kd2 Nxa1 17.Qxf5+ Kc7 18.Qe5+ Qd6 19.Qxh8. White seems to have reasonable chances for a draw, although Black certainly has an advantage. - Your idea 10.h3 Nf6 is an interesting alternative, here 11.Bg5!? e6 12.d5 may be worth a look.


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Hadron Full Member Offline Doctor, Doctor, Doctor..When will you ever learn? Posts: 195 Location: Levin, New Zealand. Joined: 03/24/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #187 - 03/12/09 at 21:05:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hadron wrote on 02/28/09 at 10:26:45: Gambit wrote on 02/28/09 at 06:24:31: Hadron wrote on 02/27/09 at 21:57:05: ArKheiN wrote on 02/27/09 at 14:47:16: But a3 is not thematic in the BDG... Maybe not. I will be the first to say I am not a big fan of Lev's waffling but I have read some of his detailed analyses on various chess subjects and the puffery a side, his analysis was pretty good. I don't know really but maybe a3 in the circumstances he mentioned might be worth a look? Why, thank you! Yes, it is not a standard move in the BDG. But whoever said I made standard moves? My moves are all unorthodox! So how about reading the article? Sure, why not... HTH I didn't think so..... HTH

	I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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SWJediknight God Member Offline Alert... opponent out of book! Posts: 916 Joined: 03/14/08	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #186 - 03/12/09 at 20:23:53	Post Tools	Print Post
	Indeed, a close inspection of the last position suggests White does have two pawns' worth of compensation. I think both sides can improve, for instance I doubt White has enough compensation after 16...Nd5, but 10.Nxf6+ immediately (instead of 10.Rf1) may improve for White, forcing Black to retake with a pawn. White continues Be3, Rg1, Qh5 and 0-0-0 while Black's development remains chaotic. It's worth noting that 8...Bc8 is not a move Black would be likely to find OTB! In the 8...g6 line, a scan though (admittedly with much assistance from Fritz!) reveals that Black's best chance may well be 13...Ke6 14.d5+ Kd7, though the position is certainly chaotic. Perhaps instead 10.h3 Nf6 11.Be3 with similar play to the last note but the doubled pawn on f5 rather than f6. The other lines, as far as I can see, give White good play for the two-pawn deficit. Regardless, 7.g4!? is an inspired idea- it definitely looks worth a punt at fast time limits at least.


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Stefan Buecker

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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #185 - 03/12/09 at 16:17:16

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SWJediknight wrote on 02/25/09 at 18:53:07:

Instead, 5.Bc4 is the usual response but I doubt that it gives full compensation. 5...exf3 (5...b5!?- Bacrot) 6.Nxf3 Bf5 7.Bg5 (7.Ne5 e6 8.0-0 Bg6! =+) 7...e6 8.Qe2 works fine against 8...Be7 (9.0-0-0 and 10.Rhf1) but I can't find anything convincing against 8...Bb4!. Perhaps White might be able to find something after 9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Nbd7 11.0-0 0-0.

After 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5, your variation may be an acceptable emergency solution. I agree with you that 7.Bg5 e6 8.Qe2 Be7 9.0-0-0! gives White sufficient compensation. Unfortunately your second remark seems also right: 8...Bb4! is better. Instead of your 9.a3 I'd rather try 9.0-0 (obviously White would have preferred to castle long, but at least now he saves a tempo: a2-a3) 9...0-0! (9...Be7!? 10.Rae1 0-0 11.Ne5! unclear; 9...Nbd7 10.Ne5 0-0 11.Nxf7) 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11.Ne4. An interesting position, e. g. 11...Bg6 12.c3 Be7 13.a4 a5 14.g4 Nd7 15.Nh4 Bxe4! 16.Qxe4 f5 17.Nxf5, but this may not be entirely correct, and there are several alternatives for Black.

Nothing of the above deserves a diagram, I fear.
Is there a clear refutation, by the way, of 7.g4!?? in the BDG folios?

Black may reply: 7...Nxg4 (7...Bxg4 8.Bxf7+; 7...Bg6 8.h4) 8.Nh4, and now:

(a) 8...e6 9.Nxf5 exf5 10.0-0 Nf6 11.Rxf5 etc.

(b) 8...Bd7 9.Ne4 b5 10.Qe2 e5 11.Bxf7+ Kxf7 12.Qf3+ Nf6 13.0-0 exd4 14.Qb3+ Ke7 15.Re1.

(c) 8...g6 9.Nxf5 gxf5 10.Bg5 h6 11.Bh4 Ne3 12.Bxf7+ Kxf7 13.Qh5+ Kg8 (13...Ke6 14.d5+) 14.Qg6+ Bg7 15.Qe6+ Kh7 16.Rg1 Rg8 17.Qxe3 Qxd4 18.Qxd4 Bxd4 19.Rxg8 Kxg8 20.0-0-0.

(d) 8...Bc8 9.Ne4 Nf6 10.Rf1 Nbd7 11.Qe2 e6 12.Bg5 Qa5+ 13.Bd2 Qh5 14.Nxf6+ Nxf6 15.Nf3 Bd7 16.0-0-0 0-0-0 17.Rde1

For the two sacrificed pawns, White has full compensation.

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10777 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #184 - 03/12/09 at 10:55:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Gambit wrote on 03/12/09 at 03:11:42: Exactly how you measure IQ? Care to tell? Study psychology. Gambit wrote on 03/12/09 at 03:11:42: But if you don't, that's fine by me. Everything I have omitted are facts I never disputed. But note LDZ write something else here than in a few previous posts. Good to read that people don't have to do this or do that according to him.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Gambit God Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 1397 Location: Newark Joined: 07/26/05 Gender:	Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit Reply #183 - 03/12/09 at 03:11:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	MNb wrote on 03/12/09 at 02:14:08: Gambit wrote on 03/11/09 at 13:14:15: I don't proscribe what people think, MNb, moron. "People should do this or do that" is proscribing. And you are looking for trouble, pal. Next time you deliberately use abusive language a complaint will go to the moderator and the administrator. Calling me a moron is a grave insult to all those having an IQ considerably lower than average. Dictator that your are. Exactly how you measure IQ? Care to tell? Pal, you have to realize that what I said is my opinion. Certainly people are going to use computers for analyses. However, when it comes to OTB chess, it is not possible to use computers for that is cheating. Or haven't you heard about an incident where one opponent was being accused of using computer assistance? Kramnik-Topalov 2008 comes to mind. Also, World Open, Philadelphia, 1995. So who is being a dictator? I am just trying to have an even and honest, level playing field. If you or anyone else want to play me, fine. OTB chess, tournament conditions, no computer analyses. But if you don't, that's fine by me. When I play in OTB tournaments, no one uses computer assistance.


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