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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit (Read 182158 times)
Gambit
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #212 - 03/24/09 at 14:23:32
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Yes, I will do that once I check the analyses later this week.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #211 - 03/24/09 at 09:54:27
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Gambit wrote on 03/22/09 at 16:42:37:
Hey, Stefan, [...]
Specifically, the line that goes 1 d4 e5 2 de5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Qe7 4 Bf4 Qb4+ 5 Bd2 Qxb2 6 Nc3 Bb4 7 Ra1 Qa3 8 Rb3 Qa5 9 a3 Bxc3 10 Rxc3!
You attribute 10 Rxc3!  to Dr. Egon Meyer, correct?
I consider this line, rather than 10 Bxc3?! to be critical for the Englund Gambit. The reason is that the Rook puts pressure on c7, while the Bishop does not.
[...]


Don't you have a thread on the Englund? In a blitz game I once faced 10 Rxc3 (I don't know about Dr. Egon Meyer??) and won with 10...Qa4. And no, I don't think this line is critical for the Englund. As we are off-topic anyway, didn't you want to rescue the Portuguese?
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #210 - 03/22/09 at 16:42:37
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Hey, Stefan,

Do you have any German games with the Englund gambit? Specifically, the line that goes 1 d4 e5 2 de5 Nc6 3 Nf3 Qe7 4 Bf4 Qb4+ 5 Bd2 Qxb2 6 Nc3 Bb4 7 Ra1 Qa3 8 Rb3 Qa5 9 a3 Bxc3 10 Rxc3!

You attribute 10 Rxc3!  to Dr. Egon Meyer, correct?

I consider this line, rather than 10 Bxc3?! to be critical for the Englund Gambit. The reason is that the Rook puts pressure on c7, while the Bishop does not.

Please respond. I am writing an article about this line. If you have the space, I'll send in a Reader's Letter to Kaissiber.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #209 - 03/21/09 at 08:35:01
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/19/09 at 18:43:15:
[...], e.g. 10...Qa5 11.h4 Qxg5 [...]

The "e.g." says that we checked other lines, too. In fact, this Qxg5 was my own contribution. Gutman's key idea was to castle long (in contrast to old games with Ne5-xg6 plus 0-0), play h4 and Rh3 (to be able to take back on c3, if necessary) and Rh-f3, to pin Black's pieces to the weak pawn on f7. The Qd3 includes motives of Bxe6 and Qxg6+, but in the long run the queen rather belongs to e2, to exert pressure on the e-file. and assist a later g2-g4 and h4-h5. 

If Black just develops and castles long, he might find himself in a position like the following: 10...Qa5 11.h4 Nbd7 (11...Qf5 12.Qe3 Qxc2 13.0-0) 12.0-0-0 0-0-0 13.Qe2 Bb4 14.Rh3 Nb6 15.Bb3 Rd7 16.a3 Bd6?! 17.Rf3 Nbd5 18.Na4! with some compensation for the pawn (18...Nh5 19.g4). 
If you prefer 10...Be7 11.0-0-0 Nbd7 12.h4, okay, but now Black has to develop an idea how he can avoid the "Gutman position". Should he play 12...b5 13.Bb3 a5 14.a4 b4 15.Ne4 or 12...Nd5 13.Bxe7 Nxe7 14.Ne4? 
Any concrete variations?
  
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Gambit
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #208 - 03/21/09 at 05:13:38
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Still better than Gutmann's line.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #207 - 03/21/09 at 02:00:33
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Gambit wrote on 03/20/09 at 23:18:21:
Now why the heck would Black cooperate like this? Instead of 10...Qa5, how about 10...Be7 ?

11.0-0-0 Nbd7 12.h4
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #206 - 03/20/09 at 23:18:21
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Now why the heck would Black cooperate like this? Instead of 10...Qa5, how about 10...Be7 ?
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #205 - 03/19/09 at 18:43:15
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Yesterday I asked another Lev what he thought about 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 c6 5.Bc4 exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5, a position that I still regard as critical for an ambitious BDG repertoire. After one hour Lev Gutman called back and said that the following seemed relatively best: 7.Bg5 e6 8.Nh4! Bg6 9.Nxg6 hxg6 10.Qd3. He wasn't absolutely sure that the compensation was sufficient, but in our discussion we soon liked the idea, e.g. 10...Qa5 11.h4 Qxg5 12.hxg5 Rxh1+ 13.Ke2 Rxa1 14.gxf6. - I didn't find this line in the BDG books that I checked or in a BDG database of 7000 games, and can't remember a thread in this pub, where this drink had been served. Has anybody here already seen earlier analysis or a game with 10.Qd3?
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #204 - 03/18/09 at 00:33:06
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Most BDG players are glad when Black plays the Euwe Defence 5...e6. It was a surprise that Gallagher in "Beating the Anti-KI" recommended the Euwe, when many other lines would have been available that must objectively be stronger. OK, his key idea was that Black should delay his castling, and such an advice, given by a GM, must be very useful for many Black players (much better, at least, than castling early in the Euwe and being smashed after Qe1-h4 etc.). But White has more reliable lines here than in most BDG systems. 

I haven't followed the latest developments, but in Kaissiber 8 (1998) 7.Qd2 (strongly favoured by Studier) looked just great, 7.Qe2 c5 8.0-0-0 came into question, and even something weird like 7.Bf2 seemed playable. The line 7.Bd3 Nc6 8.a3 h6 9.Bf4 g5 10.Be5 g4 11.Nd2! (Lane) was about =, here Gallagher's 8.Qd2 Nb4 was also acceptable: 9.0-0-0 Nxd3+ 10.Qxd3 0-0 11.h4 c5 12.Bxf6 Bxf6 13.dxc5 Qxd3 14.Rxd3 Bxc3 15.Rxc3 f6. =+ according to Gallagher, but I gave 16.Rd1 e5 17.Rd6 Bg4 18.Kd2 =. 

Diemer in a letter (quoted in Studier's book): "In a correspondence with Euwe on questions of nomenclature, he wasn't glad that this perhaps weakest defence 5...e6 was named after him." So perhaps a thread on "antidotes to the BDG" should focus on other lines. If the reply 5...e6 were obligatory, many would like to play the BDG.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #203 - 03/17/09 at 18:07:42
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Gambit,
All your points show is that, like I said, 8.0-0 is a good blitz weapon.  But the main point of this forum is to discuss the objective merits, plus the practical merits at the various different time controls, not just blitz.

I maintain that it is not a good choice in slow games at high levels, because Black has many ways to get an =+.  And even at my modest level (1700-1800) I would not risk it in a serious game, especially as the 7.Qd2 lines are perfectly adequate and offer just as many chances for Black to go wrong.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #202 - 03/17/09 at 16:37:04
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MNb:

I admitted nothing of the sort! You said that I did not want to play solid moves. And what is this crap about "hope chess"? By your logic, any two-pawn gambit (Milner-Barry in the French Defense, Ryder Gambit in the BDG, Danish Gambit, King's Gambit, Evans Gambit, etc) is hope chess? Baloney!

You just admitted that you'd rather use a computer to do all the analyses for you. That's laziness! Whatever happened to using your own brains rather than a bunch of silicon circuits?
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #201 - 03/17/09 at 13:50:01
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Gambit wrote on 03/16/09 at 05:26:58:

MNb:

You clearly do not know the theory of 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1. Of course you can ask a computer. However, whenever I play 8 00  my opponents cannot ask a computer! Grin


Gambit:

I know what you gave us plus the comments of various contributors. That was enough to put me off.
Your next post on your invention confirms my decision: you play 8.0-0 as a sophisticated form of hope chess.
At the other hand I think 7.Qd2 is correct, even against silicon assisted play.
Thanks for admitting that you are not interested in playing good moves.

To answer Gambit's next post:

Gambit wrote on 03/17/09 at 05:47:47:

The key words are "accurate play". What makes you think that Black is going to figure out the maze of variations without the assistance of a computer, and with a clock ticking away at his side?


Here you say that you assume that Black will not play accurately. In other words: you speculate that Black will err. That is the definition of hope chess (key words: {what makes you think?"}

The baloney is yours.
« Last Edit: 03/18/09 at 13:48:02 by MNb »  

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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #200 - 03/17/09 at 05:47:47
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SWJK:

The key words are "accurate play". What makes you think that Black is going to figure out the maze of variations without the assistance of a computer, and with a clock ticking away at his side? I use the Zilbermints Gambit in blitz, tournament games, and what limited correspondence I do play.

Of course you have to know the theory! It is like the Danish Gambit, where White sacrifices 2 pawns for development. And certainly, if White does not know the theory, he can lose.

But hey, knowing the theory is true of any opening, any gambit.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #199 - 03/16/09 at 19:13:05
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As White in that position, I would definitely go for 7.Qd2.  After all, after 7.Bd3 Nc6 White's best move is probably 8.Qd2 anyway, but then Nb4 harrasses the Bd3.

8.0-0 is a good try for blitz but should not give enough compensation for the two pawns sacrificed with accurate play.  Black has many ways to emerge with an =+ out of it.  Okay, if it works for you, then by all means keep playing it and winning with it- but objectively speaking there's little doubt that the 7.Qd2 lines are better, giving up only one pawn for adequate compensation.
  
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Re: Antidotes to the Blackmar-Diemer Gambit
Reply #198 - 03/16/09 at 05:26:58
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Huh? What do you mean, David Flude? It is difficult to understand which variation you are talking about. What is the move order?

MNb:

You clearly do not know the theory of 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1. Of course you can ask a computer. However, whenever I play 8 00  my opponents cannot ask a computer! Grin
  
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