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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) O'Kelly Sicilian (Read 69654 times)
TN
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #39 - 04/15/10 at 13:12:34
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 12:48:58:
TN wrote on 04/15/10 at 08:54:07:
It will be interesting to see how Martin intends to prove Black can equalise after 3.c3; perhaps Black can achieve equality with precise play but Black's attempts to justify ...a6 haven't swayed my view that White is a bit better.

Personally I sometimes play 3.c4 and transpose to a 5.c4 Kan, since Black's independent try 3...Nc6 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 e5 is a stable +=.


From the screenshots I gather that he prefers 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 to the French approach. Emms material in DW: the sicilian is excellent on 3. ... d5. White is probably a bit better but stereotype play by white will allow black to equalize. 

After 3. c4 the Kan  is the best bet. I toyed a bit with the idea to delay d4 until black has developped his king bishop (Nc3/Be2/0-0 can be played before d4 without a major downside at first sight) but it seems that black has at least the same amount of waiting moves. Still it might make some opponents feel a bit uneasy. 5. c4 in the Kan is a respectable variation but far from earth shattering.



I agree with you that transposing to a quirky Alapin line with 3...d5 is Black's best chance of equalising. I have the DW book myself, and indeed White still has to know the theory to secure an edge, which most White players won't know. 4.ed5 Nf6!? can be a very annoying line for an unprepared White, although I don't trust it.

I personally feel that the 5.c4 Kan is a solid += for White although most theoretical works feel Black should equalise. The idea of delaying d4 is interesting, since it means that White could play as in the 7.a3 lines against ...Qc7 ideas but with an extra tempo (Be3 instead of a3). Black could try to exploit this with 3...e6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.0-0 b6 7.d4 cd4 8.Nd4 Bb4, but then 9.Bg5 looks rather nice for White in spite of the doubled c-pawns.
  

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Schaakhamster
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #38 - 04/15/10 at 12:48:58
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TN wrote on 04/15/10 at 08:54:07:
It will be interesting to see how Martin intends to prove Black can equalise after 3.c3; perhaps Black can achieve equality with precise play but Black's attempts to justify ...a6 haven't swayed my view that White is a bit better.

Personally I sometimes play 3.c4 and transpose to a 5.c4 Kan, since Black's independent try 3...Nc6 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 e5 is a stable +=.


From the screenshots I gather that he prefers 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 to the French approach. Emms material in DW: the sicilian is excellent on 3. ... d5. White is probably a bit better but stereotype play by white will allow black to equalize. 

After 3. c4 the Kan  is the best bet. I toyed a bit with the idea to delay d4 until black has developped his king bishop (Nc3/Be2/0-0 can be played before d4 without a major downside at first sight) but it seems that black has at least the same amount of waiting moves. Still it might make some opponents feel a bit uneasy. 5. c4 in the Kan is a respectable variation but far from earth shattering.

  
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TN
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #37 - 04/15/10 at 08:54:07
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It will be interesting to see how Martin intends to prove Black can equalise after 3.c3; perhaps Black can achieve equality with precise play but Black's attempts to justify ...a6 haven't swayed my view that White is a bit better.

Personally I sometimes play 3.c4 and transpose to a 5.c4 Kan, since Black's independent try 3...Nc6 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 e5 is a stable +=.
  

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Schaakhamster
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #36 - 04/15/10 at 07:54:17
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ghenghisclown wrote on 04/15/10 at 05:22:07:


Interesting, but then again between them Martin and Nigel Davies probably have covered almost every opening. Still a club player could do worse then adapting the O'Kelly Sicilian.
  
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ghenghisclown
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #35 - 04/15/10 at 05:22:07
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ghenghisclown
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #34 - 01/19/09 at 21:02:54
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Well, what we're saying is, forgetting questions of personal taste, the positions are actually of the "+ =" variety when White plays in the most sticky way and "=" when he doesn't. From my vantage point, the O'Kelly is a very good variation as long as Black has a good response to the c3 line. According to the principled approach in chess, a6 must be wrong for the reasons mentioned. I don't want to get into philosophy. There are plenty of books out there that describe what's wrong with the "principled" approach. Suffice it to say that the French is a special opening to begin with, and by tranpsosing into a slightly suspect line with ideal play White should be able to show some kind of advantage. Although players like Paehtz have used this Advance French w/ a6 to win with the Black pieces against lower-rated's.
  

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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #33 - 01/19/09 at 19:56:05
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ghenghisclown wrote on 01/19/09 at 09:50:36:
Of course White gets a small advantage. As Petrosian famously remarked though, that's every opening from the Black side. Does this justify Moro, Radjabov, and Moskalenko playing the French (where White can get an advantage) and far fewer people playing the O'Kelly? Did anybody imply 2...c5 was e4's refutation?



In recent times it seems to be the most common state of affairs for the best-play lines of major openings to be considered equal or unclear, rather than slightly better for White.  I'm talking about the assessments expressed in, for example, opening encyclopedias and Informant annotations.  For example, of the last seven relevant encyclopedias I know of, I don't think any of them indicated a "path to +=" against the Najdorf or Sveshnikov.  Most of the ones I can recall had the same view with regard to the French, though the most recent one (MCO from 2008) was in the "+=" camp (which seems in part to reflect that the Winawer, as it seems to me, has been under some pressure since about 2006.)  Some defenses, though, such as the O'Kelly, are basically "always and everywhere" considered "+=". (Some of Black's paths after 2...a6 -- such as sticking with the ...e5 stuff after 3. c4 -- have been considered by some sources as "±".  The sort of pure Maroczy positions that can arise with Black instead playing ...e6 and ...d6 there were probably considered clearly better for White before the "revolution in the '70s" -- I think of e.g. a "desperately cramped" comment by Fischer in My 60 Memorable Games -- but no doubt "+=" is the general assessment these days.).  Although these categories aren't perfect, the principle is surely that "+=" is playable for Black, while "±" isn't.      
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #32 - 01/19/09 at 15:01:39
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Willempie wrote on 01/19/09 at 15:00:16:
Schaakhamster wrote on 01/19/09 at 14:54:34:
I'll have look at this when I get home. Mind you, as I am a 1700 player and the strongest engine at my dispossal is fritz 10 you might not consider my suggestions too valuable  Grin.

Well it seems that all the Qxd5 variations in similar lines (eg the French Tarrasch) are currently quite popular (in particular with writers). Personally I am not too fond of them, though they are interesting.


it's all down to taste I guess. Some people even enjoy the englund gambit  Cheesy.

 
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #31 - 01/19/09 at 15:00:16
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Schaakhamster wrote on 01/19/09 at 14:54:34:
I'll have look at this when I get home. Mind you, as I am a 1700 player and the strongest engine at my dispossal is fritz 10 you might not consider my suggestions too valuable  Grin.

Well it seems that all the Qxd5 variations in similar lines (eg the French Tarrasch) are currently quite popular (in particular with writers). Personally I am not too fond of them, though they are interesting.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #30 - 01/19/09 at 14:54:34
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Willempie wrote on 01/18/09 at 10:53:14:
ghenghisclown wrote on 01/17/09 at 04:09:11:
It's problematic that someone can say here "I dont see much positive for black in any of them if he remains in O'Kelly territory " when clearly Black gets a very good position in most lines, and a playable as well decent-scoring alternative against the sternest test. The worst that can happen, unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, is to tranpose into a French line (and not a 3.Nc3 line either).  Maybe you mean, 3...d5 in the mainline. Perhaps that's what you mean by "O'Kelly territory."  But even in that situation White has to pay accurately to achieve the advantage. In a theory sense it's a problem, but in a practical under 2500 Fide-rating sense it's fine.

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 gives white a huge score. It seems to be a line black chooses when it is a Swiss and they are up against someone rated a lot of points less.
It surely can backfire and you can tell me where the major improvements are:
[Event "Malaga op 11th"]
[Date "2008.02.23"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Berbatov,Kiprian"]
[Black "Jovanic,Ognjen"]
[Result "1-0"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.d4 Nf6 6.Be2 e6 7.0-0 Nc6 8.Be3 cxd4 9.cxd4 Be7 10.Nc3 Qd8 11.Ne5 Nb4 12.Bg5 0-0 13.Rc1 Bd7 14.a3 Nbd5 15.Nxd5 Nxd5 16.Bxe7 Qxe7 17.Bf3 Bb5 18.Re1 Rfd8 19.Rc5 Nb6 20.Qc2 Rac8 21.b3 Be8 22.a4 f6 23.a5 Rxc5 24.Qxc5 Qxc5 25.dxc5 Nd5 26.Nc4 Bf7 27.Nd6 Rd7 28.Bxd5 exd5 29.b4 g5 30.f3 Kg7 31.Kf2 Kg6 32.Ke3 h5 33.Kd4 Kg7 34.Rb1 Bg6 35.Rb2 Re7 36.b5 Re1 37.Kxd5 Rd1+ 38.Ke6 Bd3 39.c6  1-0


I'll have look at this when I get home. Mind you, as I am a 1700 player and the strongest engine at my dispossal is fritz 10 you might not consider my suggestions too valuable  Grin.
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #29 - 01/19/09 at 10:50:35
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I discovered recently that all the strong juniors are playing 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3.Bb5 against me because of my results with the dragon in correspondence. This thread has been really usefull. Maybe I will switch to the Kan or O'Kelly/Kan for over the board play. I have not played a serious game since New Year's Day so it could be my new years resolution.
  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #28 - 01/19/09 at 10:22:03
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ghenghisclown wrote on 01/19/09 at 09:50:36:
Of course White gets a small advantage. As Petrosian famously remarked though, that's every opening from the Black side. Does this justify Moro, Radjabov, and Moskalenko playing the French (where White can get an advantage) and far fewer people playing the O'Kelly? Did anybody imply 2...c5 was e4's refutation?

Some small advantages are smaller than other small advantages.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #27 - 01/19/09 at 09:50:36
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Of course White gets a small advantage. As Petrosian famously remarked though, that's every opening from the Black side. Does this justify Moro, Radjabov, and Moskalenko playing the French (where White can get an advantage) and far fewer people playing the O'Kelly? Did anybody imply 2...c5 was e4's refutation?
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #26 - 01/19/09 at 09:38:38
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MNb wrote on 01/19/09 at 02:10:07:
One major improvement is 3...e6 as you could have found in previous posts.

Well then you get the advance with a6. After which both 6.a3 and 6.Be2 are quite decent. Sure black can exchange off the white bishops with Bb5 but I think it is all still a slight advantage to white (I used to think that this was advantageous to black, but to my discomfort found out it isnt). 

Morozevich played like this a few times, but he always went for Nc6 into a regular advance with a6 and he then often wins. But then again what was the saying? "With white I win because I am white, with black I win because I am Bogoljubow"
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #25 - 01/19/09 at 08:29:25
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A major improvement?  I wish I could see so clearly ...   

This reminds me of Timoschenko's Informant notes to his win against Kasparov three decades ago; after 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. c3 d5 4. ed ed 5. d4 he gave Kasparov's 5...a6 a "dubious" mark, indicating that it should lead to a slight advantage for White, while 5...Nc6 should equalize.  Most other sources I know of agree with that "+=" assessment, just as most sources I know of think that 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 4. ed Qxd5 and 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 e6 4. d4 d5 5. e5 should be "+=".
  
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