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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) O'Kelly Sicilian (Read 69645 times)
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #54 - 05/08/11 at 10:16:15
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The move ... a6 is part of a lot of setups for Black in the Morra, e.g. after

1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 e6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Qe2 a6
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 d6 6.Bc4 a6
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 e6 6.Bc4 a6

After 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 a6 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 all these setups can be reached by transposition and it does not seem likely either side can take advantage compared to the normal moveorder.
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #53 - 05/08/11 at 09:18:59
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I am considering taking up the O'Kelly as a complement to the Kan.
I have read the previous post in this thread, but no words were spoken about the Morra Gambit.
So, what about 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 ?
Is the Morra in this form considered harmless?
(Is "4..dxc3 5.Nxc3 e6 6.Bc4 b5 7.Bb3 Bb7" the best possibility for Black?)
  

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #52 - 05/24/10 at 10:55:38
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The variation 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 a6!? does not have an especially good reputation in the theory books. Competitive players can use this unjustified assessment to their advantage because the variation is entirely playable, as International Master Andrew Martin shows on this new Chessbase DVD.

With careful selection of variations, Black players can make the O’Kelly work and work well. In fact the O’Kelly was first played by Savielly Tartakower, but it was the repeated adoption of 2...a6 by O’Kelly de Galway after World War Two that gave the variation its name. Club players will enjoy adding the O’Kelly to their repertoire and many opponents will be unfamiliar with the unusual problems that Black is posing. Video running time: 4 hours.

International Master Andrew Martin is 52 years old. He is a Senior FIDE Trainer and Manager of Coaching for the English Chess Federation. This is his 19th DVD for Chessbase.
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #51 - 05/04/10 at 06:33:29
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uma wrote on 05/04/10 at 03:09:36:
Can somebody independently help me with the "O" Kelly variation in the Sicilain & relevant ironically lines. Id selfishly be very grateful if somebody could explian the ideas behind the "O" Kelly & provide some annotated partially games featuring this opening. In a similar way i`ve been advised which this is a good introduction to learning the Sicilian. Thanks in advance from Ken.
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The O'Kelly has been discussed in various places on the Forum, you can search for them. Or read the subscription section. Or the chapter on it in "Dangerous Weapons: The Sicilian".

But what's up with the weird adverbs?
  

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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #50 - 05/04/10 at 03:09:36
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Can somebody independently help me with the "O" Kelly variation in the Sicilain & relevant ironically lines. Id selfishly be very grateful if somebody could explian the ideas behind the "O" Kelly & provide some annotated partially games featuring this opening. In a similar way i`ve been advised which this is a good introduction to learning the Sicilian. Thanks in advance from Ken.
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #49 - 04/16/10 at 17:32:21
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:31:51:
MartinC wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:28:00:
Another interesting question about this - if white does get an 'excess' advantage via 3 c3, is it big enough to merit an open Sicillian player playing that instead of just 3 Nc3?

I can see why a 2 c3 Sicillian player would be entirely happy going 2 Nf3 and 3 c3 Smiley


Good question! 3. c3 won't be everyone's cup of tea. 

As white I would either go for the 3. c4 with a delayed d4 against 3. ... e6 or perhaps 3. Nc3 hoping that my opponent goes for some offbeat answer.

It's been decades since I specialized in 1.e4, but when I did, I played the Open Sicilian and happily played 3.c3 against O'Kelly's.  Perhaps I oversimplify, but to me it looks like the most principled answer to 2...a6.

But I understand Schaakhamster's point.  If your opponents pretty often play 3.d4, why not capitalize on it?
  

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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #48 - 04/16/10 at 04:30:47
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kylemeister wrote on 04/15/10 at 20:44:21:
Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:18:20:

it isn't Emms call, he doesn't really puts a definitive assesment on the variation (other then that black chances are better then generally assumed). It is more my own opinion but if it makes everybody happy I'm perfectly willing to change the assesment to +=. I won't claim that black is better then mainline stuff but I'm not completely convinced that black is much worse then after 1 e4 c5 2. c3 d5 and that seems at least +=/=


I'm glad you won't claim that Black is better than in mainline stuff, because (if "mainline stuff" means approximately what I would take it to mean) that would seem a strange claim indeed.

When you say that "I'm not completely convinced that black is much worse then after 1 e4 c5 2. c3 d5 and that seems at least +=/=," I'm not sure what to make of that.  The usual view of 2. c3 d5 has been that it should lead to equality in the best-play lines.  I would say that it seems that Black is not "much worse" after 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 than after 2. c3 d5, but rather slightly worse, thus the shift essentially from "equal" to "slightly better for White."  I mean, these categories aren't exact, but still.   

If Emms thinks that 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 is better for Black than generally assumed, one might expect him to say some stuff on the order of "Standard theoretical works have considered this position (after 10 or 15 moves or whatever) to be +=, but I think Black is very close to equality" or "Here theoretical works usually give move X, but I think Black can improve with move Y ...".  Failing that, "better than generally assumed" sounds suspiciously like some typical boilerplate.  By the way, I would think it's generally true that a slight advantage requires good play to "capitalise on it."


Look it's a Dangerous Weapons book. They cover, at best, slightly offbeat lines. And I'm still waiting for the first chess author that will say: "hey I'm going to cover opening x from the black/white side and boy what a bad opening it is". 

That being said: I like Emms coverage of 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3. He has some nice ideas. 

I have played a few games with that variation and personnally I wouldn't play 3. c3 unless you have experience with 2. c3 or have prepared it a bit. 

I must admit: there also practical and psychological reasons:
* As I said before 3. c3 won't be everyone's cup of tea.   
* At my level (1600-1700) most players will just whip out 3. d4. Players with a bit more book knowledge will sometimes play 3. c3 because they know from their books 3. c3 and white is better, but that is mostly where their knowledge ends, unless they got 2. c3 experience.

In that respect I quote Sokolov from "The Ruy Lopez Revisited":

"One important aspect of these ‘sidelines’ improves their practical viability.
Many years ago I talked to my French colleague Grandmaster Joel Lautier, who at the time played the Siesta Variation of the Ruy Lopez with Black. I was not fond of the Siesta – I considered it dubious and challenged the viability of his opening choice. His answer was quite simple: ‘Yes, White is objectively better, but the position is sharp, the line is not often played and the vast majority of my opponents will have to make do with a maximum of a few hours of preparation before the game, versus my 100 hours of work at home. Under such circumstances, in a sharp and relatively unexplored position, I should be the favourite and the tables should turn.’ This reply made sense – his results in the Siesta were good. Later I often employed a sim i lar kind of ope ning prep a ra tion (never even close to 100 hours, though!), and with success. I even played the Siesta at some stage!"

I know some of the truth-seekers on this forum might challenge that approach. 

  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #47 - 04/15/10 at 20:44:21
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:18:20:

it isn't Emms call, he doesn't really puts a definitive assesment on the variation (other then that black chances are better then generally assumed). It is more my own opinion but if it makes everybody happy I'm perfectly willing to change the assesment to +=. I won't claim that black is better then mainline stuff but I'm not completely convinced that black is much worse then after 1 e4 c5 2. c3 d5 and that seems at least +=/=


I'm glad you won't claim that Black is better than in mainline stuff, because (if "mainline stuff" means approximately what I would take it to mean) that would seem a strange claim indeed.

When you say that "I'm not completely convinced that black is much worse then after 1 e4 c5 2. c3 d5 and that seems at least +=/=," I'm not sure what to make of that.  The usual view of 2. c3 d5 has been that it should lead to equality in the best-play lines.  I would say that it seems that Black is not "much worse" after 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 than after 2. c3 d5, but rather slightly worse, thus the shift essentially from "equal" to "slightly better for White."  I mean, these categories aren't exact, but still.   

If Emms thinks that 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 is better for Black than generally assumed, one might expect him to say some stuff on the order of "Standard theoretical works have considered this position (after 10 or 15 moves or whatever) to be +=, but I think Black is very close to equality" or "Here theoretical works usually give move X, but I think Black can improve with move Y ...".  Failing that, "better than generally assumed" sounds suspiciously like some typical boilerplate.  By the way, I would think it's generally true that a slight advantage requires good play to "capitalise on it."
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #46 - 04/15/10 at 19:31:51
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MartinC wrote on 04/15/10 at 19:28:00:
Another interesting question about this - if white does get an 'excess' advantage via 3 c3, is it big enough to merit an open Sicillian player playing that instead of just 3 Nc3?

I can see why a 2 c3 Sicillian player would be entirely happy going 2 Nf3 and 3 c3 Smiley


Good question! 3. c3 won't be everyone's cup of tea. 

As white I would either go for the 3. c4 with a delayed d4 against 3. ... e6 or perhaps 3. Nc3 hoping that my opponent goes for some offbeat answer.
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #45 - 04/15/10 at 19:28:00
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Another interesting question about this - if white does get an 'excess' advantage via 3 c3, is it big enough to merit an open Sicillian player playing that instead of just 3 Nc3?

I can see why a 2 c3 Sicillian player would be entirely happy going 2 Nf3 and 3 c3 Smiley
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #44 - 04/15/10 at 19:18:20
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kylemeister wrote on 04/15/10 at 15:25:04:
Markovich wrote on 04/15/10 at 14:15:13:
Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 14:03:49:


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3.c3 d5 
+=/= There might be slighty edge for white out there but does require good play from him to capitalise on it. To my experience black has difficulties to play for more then a draw if white isn't too ambitious. (source: Emms in DW: The Sicilian)


Who am I to dispute Emms, but if this is true then the c3 Sicilian is absolute crap, because all Black has to do is play ...d5 and ...a6 soon.  Personally I doubt that.


Indeed.  I believe 3. c3 has been evaluated as leading to += in every theoretical work I've ever seen, which is certainly plausible to me.  To describe it as "+=/=" would seem to pretty much place the O'Kelly on a par with Black's theoretically best defenses, which is hard to believe.  Citing one particular source which (as is so often the case these days) is essentially a work of advocacy for one side (a statement like "there may be an edge for White, but ..." seems par for the course) isn't convincing.


it isn't Emms call, he doesn't really puts a definitive assesment on the variation (other then that black chances are better then generally assumed). It is more my own opinion but if it makes everybody happy I'm perfectly willing to change the assesment to +=. I won't claim that black is better then mainline stuff but I'm not completely convinced that black is much worse then after 1 e4 c5 2. c3 d5 and that seems at least +=/=
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #43 - 04/15/10 at 15:25:04
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Markovich wrote on 04/15/10 at 14:15:13:
Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 14:03:49:


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3.c3 d5 
+=/= There might be slighty edge for white out there but does require good play from him to capitalise on it. To my experience black has difficulties to play for more then a draw if white isn't too ambitious. (source: Emms in DW: The Sicilian)


Who am I to dispute Emms, but if this is true then the c3 Sicilian is absolute crap, because all Black has to do is play ...d5 and ...a6 soon.  Personally I doubt that.


Indeed.  I believe 3. c3 has been evaluated as leading to += in every theoretical work I've ever seen, which is certainly plausible to me.  To describe it as "+=/=" would seem to pretty much place the O'Kelly on a par with Black's theoretically best defenses, which is hard to believe.  Citing one particular source which (as is so often the case these days) is essentially a work of advocacy for one side (a statement like "there may be an edge for White, but ..." seems par for the course) isn't convincing.
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #42 - 04/15/10 at 14:15:13
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 14:03:49:


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3.c3 d5 
+=/= There might be slighty edge for white out there but does require good play from him to capitalise on it. To my experience black has difficulties to play for more then a draw if white isn't too ambitious. (source: Emms in DW: The Sicilian)


Who am I to dispute Emms, but if this is true then the c3 Sicilian is absolute crap, because all Black has to do is play ...d5 and ...a6 soon.  Personally I doubt that.
  

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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #41 - 04/15/10 at 14:03:49
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TN wrote on 04/15/10 at 13:12:34:
Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 12:48:58:
TN wrote on 04/15/10 at 08:54:07:
It will be interesting to see how Martin intends to prove Black can equalise after 3.c3; perhaps Black can achieve equality with precise play but Black's attempts to justify ...a6 haven't swayed my view that White is a bit better.

Personally I sometimes play 3.c4 and transpose to a 5.c4 Kan, since Black's independent try 3...Nc6 4.d4 cd4 5.Nd4 e5 is a stable +=.


From the screenshots I gather that he prefers 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 to the French approach. Emms material in DW: the sicilian is excellent on 3. ... d5. White is probably a bit better but stereotype play by white will allow black to equalize. 

After 3. c4 the Kan  is the best bet. I toyed a bit with the idea to delay d4 until black has developped his king bishop (Nc3/Be2/0-0 can be played before d4 without a major downside at first sight) but it seems that black has at least the same amount of waiting moves. Still it might make some opponents feel a bit uneasy. 5. c4 in the Kan is a respectable variation but far from earth shattering.



I agree with you that transposing to a quirky Alapin line with 3...d5 is Black's best chance of equalising. I have the DW book myself, and indeed White still has to know the theory to secure an edge, which most White players won't know. 4.ed5 Nf6!? can be a very annoying line for an unprepared White, although I don't trust it.

I personally feel that the 5.c4 Kan is a solid += for White although most theoretical works feel Black should equalise. The idea of delaying d4 is interesting, since it means that White could play as in the 7.a3 lines against ...Qc7 ideas but with an extra tempo (Be3 instead of a3). Black could try to exploit this with 3...e6 4.Nc3 Qc7 5.Be2 Nf6 6.0-0 b6 7.d4 cd4 8.Nd4 Bb4, but then 9.Bg5 looks rather nice for White in spite of the doubled c-pawns.


Seeing the number of strong players playing the Kan and relative unpopularity of 5. c4 in reply I can hardly imagine it being a solid +=. Still it isn't a walk in the park. I'm with Hellsten on this one: I prefer the Hedgehodge stuff over the Bb4 stuff. Hellsten got some pretty good stuff on that in "Play the Kan". It is all very complicated and would say that the better player has chances to outplay his opponent from either side of the board.

As I have stated numerous times: the O'Kelly is viable if you combine it with Kan. 

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. d4 cxd5 4. Nf6 Nc3 4. e5:

=/=+ but black has to be active and use his iniative. Otherwise white could take over. Get d5 in when you can although this will sometime lead to drawish positions. Although black is absolutely fine this variation isn't as bad for white as generally assumed. (source: Emms in DW: The Sicilian)

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3.c3 d5 
+=/= There might be slighty edge for white out there but does require good play from him to capitalise on it. To my experience black has difficulties to play for more then a draw if white isn't too ambitious. (source: Emms in DW: The Sicilian)

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c4
+=/= My advice: head for the Kan. White is better in the offbeat stuff. (source Hellsten "Play the Kan")

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. Nc3 
Pick another sicilian (Najdorf/Taimanov/Kan). Offbeat stuff is again a big no-no. Chess Stars the Sharpest and the Safest Sicilian are nice and for the Kan: go for Hellsten.
  
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Re: O'Kelly Sicilian
Reply #40 - 04/15/10 at 14:00:55
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Schaakhamster wrote on 04/15/10 at 12:48:58:
From the screenshots I gather that he prefers 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 a6 3. c3 d5 to the French approach. Emms material in DW: the sicilian is excellent on 3. ... d5. White is probably a bit better but stereotype play by white will allow black to equalize.


Sure, with 4.exd5 Nf6 5.d4 cxd4 6.cxd4 and after both Nxd5 and Qxd5 Black has a hard time to prove that 2...a6 is useful. I don't know the DW stuff, but I have satisfying experience with 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5. My opponents did never play ...a6 though.
If this is Black's best then the O'Kelly is inferior. Black should rather play the Caro-Kann and ...e6 versus the Panov.
  

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