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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) A role model for amateurs? (Read 11221 times)
Alias
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #24 - 01/27/09 at 10:25:10
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Back to the original question, I think a good role model is a top or near top player who is active and annotates his/her own games. (Better players play better games and usually annotates better than weaker players.) His/her style should be close to your own. An advantage would be to have a role model with a narrow opening repertoire but few top players have that. I see no problem of having players from the past as role models. Then books on their games are usually available.

Even if I find many games by Karpov or Kramnik very logical, I still enjoy playing through the games by Tal or Morozevich. It's good to see games of different styles too.

Another thing. A few years ago I very much enjoyed listening to Ulf Andersson's commentary of the swedish championship. (Jesper Hall do them nowadays. He's good but not as good as Ulf.) A few times I went there just to listen to him. Chess seemed so much easier after listening to him. I would like to see a book with his games annotated by himself. (That's been discussed in other threads.)
  

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Paddy
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #23 - 01/27/09 at 00:55:04
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Markovich wrote on 01/26/09 at 18:30:46:
Alias wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:45:51:
Markovich wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:14:19:
Dragan Glas wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:03:30:
Greetings,

Markovich, would this do instead!? I know it may not be a hardback book, but still...  Wink

There's also Soltis' book.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas



I had no idea this edition existed.  Thanks.  Right, my 50 years.  I corrected my post.


Harding Simpole have many classics in print. http://www.hardingesimpole.co.uk/series/hardinge_simpole_chess_classics.htm (The also have some opening books, e.g. the Watson series on the English: http://www.hardingesimpole.co.uk/series/hardinge_simpole_classic_openings.htm ) For some reason they are not sold by many chess book stores and few chess players seems to be aware that they are available. Many of their books are in the old descriptive notation and they're quite expensive. Still, some of their books are exceptionally good.


Thanks.  That two-volume set of Reshevsky's games looks particularly interesting.


It is not always clear what the origins of the Hardinge Simpole reprints are.

You might find it useful to know that Vol 1 of the Reshevsky is a reprint of a title already reprinted years ago by Dover: the original was "Reshevsky on Chess", reputedly ghosted by Fred Reinfeld.

Vol 2 was originally published as "How Chess Games Are Won" in the early 1960s. See for more info
http://www.amazon.com/Reshevskys-Games-Hardinge-Simpole-classics/dp/1843820943

You might be able to pick them up on the second hand market cheaper than buying the H S reprints.

I have both books and like them a lot, but I don't think they are in the first division of players' best game collections.
  
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Matemax
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #22 - 01/26/09 at 20:59:56
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I think you are going from one extreme to the other. Marin essentially published his own repertoire. He is by no means an elite GM. I suspect he largely plays in open events.  To say that Marin's repertoire offers no winning chances is simply not true. You don't have to play so called dangerous weapons, opening surprises, or dubious  openings  to play for a win.

I admit that some of Marin's variations offer decent winning chances for Black as well, but his repertoire against gambits looks a little tame (it certainly has to do with his personality and his intention to keep the book harmonious (which I clearly give a 10 out of 10 for!)) - more like a suggestion for Adams how to answer in games against Carlsen. But I have to say I really like the book - as for example his strategical approach in the 4 knights is a headache for white players.

OK - but I did not want to discuss Marin here...

...let's go back to the theme.

The idea of this thread is that there are not only repertoire books but also repertoire players in our chess universe. Play like Lasker, Korchnoi, Short seems a better approach to me than to try to copy Aronian, Karjakin or Topalov with their analysing teams and computers in the background.

I dont like SOS and DW - but many people do. And I think its exact the reason a lot of chess players are fed up with the professional approach when they are amateurs themselves. I dont think Short or Korchnoi would play SOS (perhaps DW) - but they have a lot of self constructed unique systems somewhere beside the main track.

Today I watched Movsesian (Video) analysing his win against Ivanchuk and he was asked why he plays his sidelines. The answer was that he just wants to get a playable position and not so much get involved within they main line theoretical mountains.

Mr. Movsesian as the leader of Corus could also be a perfect role model - and I really hope he wins, showing all the chess world that playing chess is still superior to all the home based analysis and memorizing.

PS: As I am not a native English speaker I find it hard to communicate nuances - this may lead to the feeling that I just change my mind ("going from one extreme to another"), but I just couldnt find the right words "in between" (so it's black or white like in chess Smiley)
  
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #21 - 01/26/09 at 20:02:59
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Antillian has largely been saying what I have been thinking.  One could choose as a model a "normal" GM who might in the usual course of things play opponents rated from about 2000 to 2700.  The idea that, say, most players should focus on games between 2750-players is curious.

I disagree with the idea expressed earlier that in studying the classics, one need not go further back than the mid-80s or so.  Roughly, modern GMs know that some things are good for one side or the other and so they don't come up, but if you don't study older games you won't know what they're avoiding/why they're avoiding it (and your opponents may not avoid it) ...
  
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FischerTal
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #20 - 01/26/09 at 19:37:58
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Yes Markovich, Marshall is really good model with classical aggressive D4 play, I remember that book Marshall's best games and his opponents play the sort of errors club players do and you can see how he took advantage of them.
  
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Antillian
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #19 - 01/26/09 at 19:36:25
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Matemax wrote on 01/26/09 at 18:29:57:
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Certainly when playing Black especially, it is important to remember that the top notch players who play mainly in closed invitationals are a lot more risk adverse and often don't mind a draw with the black pieces.

I observe that e.g. Marin's book "Beating the Open Games" would certainly fit for those players. I really like the book, too - but as Marin's approach is to take no risk, it gives nearly no winning chances for Black. But I am not a grandmaster (and very probably will never be) and it could happen that with this repertoire I end up fighting for a draw against lower class players as well. Perhaps the same goes for Avrukh and alike repertoire books. SOS and DW seem to be more on amateur level - on the other hand playing strong opponents it could be crushing. There are some GMs and IMs who play "Open Tournaments" that have a perhaps even slightly dubious repertoire with some dangerous bite -  cause without risk there is no win in these tournaments. Amateurs probably should follow these guys...


I think you are going from one extreme to the other. Marin essentially published his own repertoire. He is by no means an elite GM. I suspect he largely plays in open events.  To say that Marin's repertoire offers no winning chances is simply not true. You don't have to play so called dangerous weapons, opening surprises, or dubious  openings  to play for a win.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Markovich
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #18 - 01/26/09 at 18:30:46
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Alias wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:45:51:
Markovich wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:14:19:
Dragan Glas wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:03:30:
Greetings,

Markovich, would this do instead!? I know it may not be a hardback book, but still...  Wink

There's also Soltis' book.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas



I had no idea this edition existed.  Thanks.  Right, my 50 years.  I corrected my post.


Harding Simpole have many classics in print. http://www.hardingesimpole.co.uk/series/hardinge_simpole_chess_classics.htm (The also have some opening books, e.g. the Watson series on the English: http://www.hardingesimpole.co.uk/series/hardinge_simpole_classic_openings.htm ) For some reason they are not sold by many chess book stores and few chess players seems to be aware that they are available. Many of their books are in the old descriptive notation and they're quite expensive. Still, some of their books are exceptionally good.


Thanks.  That two-volume set of Reshevsky's games looks particularly interesting.
  

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Matemax
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #17 - 01/26/09 at 18:29:57
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Quote:
Certainly when playing Black especially, it is important to remember that the top notch players who play mainly in closed invitationals are a lot more risk adverse and often don't mind a draw with the black pieces.

I observe that e.g. Marin's book "Beating the Open Games" would certainly fit for those players. I really like the book, too - but as Marin's approach is to take no risk, it gives nearly no winning chances for Black. But I am not a grandmaster (and very probably will never be) and it could happen that with this repertoire I end up fighting for a draw against lower class players as well. Perhaps the same goes for Avrukh and alike repertoire books. SOS and DW seem to be more on amateur level - on the other hand playing strong opponents it could be crushing. There are some GMs and IMs who play "Open Tournaments" that have a perhaps even slightly dubious repertoire with some dangerous bite -  cause without risk there is no win in these tournaments. Amateurs probably should follow these guys...
  
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Antillian
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #16 - 01/26/09 at 17:57:38
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Personally, while I appreciate the classics, I love modern chess and would opt for modern role models anyday over the older ones. 

Having said that, I have read advice in several chess books, that for opening guidance better to emulate the second tier of top chess players than the very top. 

Certainly when playing Black especially, it is important to remember that the top notch players who play mainly in closed invitationals are a lot more risk adverse and often don't mind a draw with the black pieces. 

Below that level however,  are lots of superb Grandmasters who have to play often in open tournaments where they have to win with both colours. They are probably more relevant as role models for most of us.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #15 - 01/26/09 at 17:45:51
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Markovich wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:14:19:
Dragan Glas wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:03:30:
Greetings,

Markovich, would this do instead!? I know it may not be a hardback book, but still...  Wink

There's also Soltis' book.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas



I had no idea this edition existed.  Thanks.  Right, my 50 years.  I corrected my post.


Harding Simpole have many classics in print. http://www.hardingesimpole.co.uk/series/hardinge_simpole_chess_classics.htm (The also have some opening books, e.g. the Watson series on the English: http://www.hardingesimpole.co.uk/series/hardinge_simpole_classic_openings.htm ) For some reason they are not sold by many chess book stores and few chess players seems to be aware that they are available. Many of their books are in the old descriptive notation and they're quite expensive. Still, some of their books are exceptionally good.
  

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Dragan Glas
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #14 - 01/26/09 at 17:45:47
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Greetings,

Markovich wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:14:19:
Dragan Glas wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:03:30:
Greetings,

Markovich, would this do instead!? I know it may not be a hardback book, but still...  Wink

There's also Soltis' book.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas



I had no idea this edition existed.  Thanks.  Right, my 50 years.  I corrected my post.

I'm glad I managed to help. Grin

I trust that it's not a "Revised" or "Updated" version - like Krogius' effort of Capablanca's classic, Chess Fundamentals. Angry

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas
  
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Markovich
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #13 - 01/26/09 at 17:14:19
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Dragan Glas wrote on 01/26/09 at 17:03:30:
Greetings,

Markovich, would this do instead!? I know it may not be a hardback book, but still...  Wink

There's also Soltis' book.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas



I had no idea this edition existed.  Thanks.  Right, my 50 years.  I corrected my post.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
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Dragan Glas
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #12 - 01/26/09 at 17:03:30
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Greetings,

Markovich, would this do instead!? I know it may not be a hardback book, but still...  Wink

There's also Soltis' book.

Kindest regards,

Dragan Glas

  
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Markovich
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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #11 - 01/26/09 at 14:03:30
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I think that Frank Marshall is a fantastic role model for amateur players.  His game collection, Marshall's Best Games of Chess (itself a reprint of My 50 Years of Chess) is sadly out of print, but it's readily available on the internet.
« Last Edit: 01/26/09 at 17:14:34 by Markovich »  

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Re: A role model for amateurs?
Reply #10 - 01/26/09 at 10:28:39
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Matemax wrote on 01/25/09 at 12:48:47:


Watching the games of Nigel Short (and his comments about memory and thinking on a video) I thought he might be a perfect role model for amateurs - even beating Ex-Fide World Champ Rustam Khasimdzanov with this approach (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.0-0!? - aiming for equality but a play-think-position).

Is Nigel Short a perfect role model?


For me (being an 1. e4 player) some of Nigel Short's White games are so easy to follow, there's certain harmony in these games from start to finish. I also consider some of his games and/or ideas as thematic for some of the openings I play. But of course he can also perform in a chaotic style that is hard to follow (unless you are a calculating machine).

In general I prefer the games of the older generations, since there is certain consistency throughout their games and the ideas are more clearly presented. Modern era demands from a player to perform in many different styles and modern theory (not only re openings) presents lots of hybrids and complicated or counter-intuitive ideas, so it all is very confusing sometimes.

So, I prefer to be able to first understand the core idea and only then move on to the more sophisticated stuff..  Wink
  

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