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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin (Read 378009 times)
moahunter
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #95 - 09/25/09 at 21:24:55
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F22 wrote on 09/21/09 at 06:58:17:

Playing 1. c4 only makes sense if one can avoid the main lines of 1. d4 d5 with reasonable theoretical success.

I disagree with this. The reason the English opening has shown up in world championship matches of the past (Kasparov and Karpov had many battles), is because it offers the ability to retain pieces on the board without simplification in must win situations, but also as it allows the avoidance of certain d4 lines for a particular opponent. The main d4 lines aren't avoided, just certain problematic ones, depending on the situation. If my Nimzo is struggling against an opponent, I can avoid it with the Mikenas Flohr or Anti Nimzo, which are good lines. I'm not going to realistically get out of playing the KID though, without settling for an inferior position.

Another example, I think we will never see a reiti type move order with b3 in a modern world championship match, because world champions are happy to transpose into an objectively better reply, the Queens Gambit, or Catalan. That's not to say such moves might not be a bad idea for us normal people, but we have to recognize we aren't really playing for an advantage, we are taking a short cut.
  
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Antillian
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #94 - 09/25/09 at 20:16:29
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Well, I just got my copy. All weekend events cancelled!
  

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Antillian
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #93 - 09/25/09 at 14:46:51
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Thank you, TonyRo.
  

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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #92 - 09/25/09 at 13:20:17
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@Antillian

Here's the Marin - Landa game in question:

Marin,Mi (2556) - Landa,K (2613) [A13]
51st It Reggio Emilia ITA (3), 29.12.2008

1.c4 e6 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 d5 4.Nf3 dxc4 5.Na3 Bxa3 6.bxa3 b5 7.Ne5 Nd5 8.d3 Qf6 9.d4 Nd7 10.0-0 0-0 11.e4 N5b6 12.f4 Qe7 13.Nc6 Qe8 14.a4 Nxa4 15.Ba3 a5 16.Bxf8 Nxf8 17.e5 Ra6 18.d5 Nc3 19.Qg4 Nxd5 20.Bxd5 exd5 21.Ne7+ Qxe7 22.Qxc8 Qc5+ 23.Rf2 Re6 24.Re1 d4 25.Qd8 d3 26.Kg2 Qc6+ 27.Kg1 Qd7 28.Qa8 d2 29.Rd1 c3 30.Qe4 Rc6 0-1


Who knows where Marin will deviate, probably at 9. d4. 

@ddt

Marin's analysis of this line continues to around move 30, and I feel bad giving away anything from this book, but here is just a little bit. His main line continues:

13...Qc8 14. e3 Nf5 15. Bb2 Rd8 16. Qc2 a4 17. Rfd1 Ra5 18. Nc4!
  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #91 - 09/25/09 at 09:58:37
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I am getting more and more curious about this book. I was playing English on and off, mostly as a surprise weapon when I knew what my opponent plays against it, and scored quite well with it. However, I also tried it a couple of times in correspondence chess and there my results were not nearly as good. Most of my opponents simply went into the mainline of reversed Dragon and I really struggled to prove ANY advantage for White. 

For instance, one of my games went 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. g3 d5 4.cxd5 Nxd5 5. Bg2 Nb6 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. O-O Be7 8.a3 O-O 9. b4 Be6 10. Rb1 f6 11. d3 (I believe that this is the move order that Marin advocates, right? at least, he did suggest it before in comments to his own games) and then 11...a5 12. b5 Nd4 13. Nd2 Qc8 14. e3 Nf5 I spent a few days trying to find an advantage here, but didn't manage anything. So I was wondering what Marin suggests here?

(Yes, I am planning to buy the book, anyway Smiley)
  
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Antillian
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #90 - 09/25/09 at 09:18:15
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Curiously, the only game I can find with Marin and Landa in my db is a game where Landa had White and played the English against Marin and Marin lost!!  Wink

So, would someone who has the Marin-Landa game Aagaard is referring to be so kind as to post it here.
  

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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #89 - 09/25/09 at 08:42:26
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Marin has done extensive work on 1...c6 and 1...e6 to make them exciting. He originally intended to go into the Panov against 1...c6, as he has done for decades, but he started to work on another line, and has done very well with it in practice.

Against 1...e6 I think he is going to suggest what he played against Landa. Again, a hard hitting variation, not some solid boring stuff.

There does indeed seem to be a cross-over between the two repertoires, but it is entirely unintended. All we wanted Marin's repertoire to be, was complete. And it will be. The next book is scheduled to be out in February.
  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #88 - 09/24/09 at 17:27:35
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I have been analyzing some of these English lines with 1...e6 recently, and I agree that the line you posted seems to be quite fine for Black. I did stumble upon the line 1. c4 e6 2. g3 d5 3. Nf3 dxc4 4. Bg2 Nd7 5. 0-0 though. 

In my opinion, this line makes some sense. Black has played 3 pawn moves in a row, then placed his knight on a square where it will surely have to move again. The e6-pawn stifles the development of Black's light squared bishop, and it will take him quite a while to complete development. Meanwhile, White has put all of his pieces on good squares and castled. There are only about 20 games in my database from this position, but here are some ideas:

Black's most popular move has been 5...Ngf6 from this position, and after 6. Qc2!? we can see White's point. If Black tries the idea from your line with 6...a6, White has 7. a4 and now:

7...Rb8 has been played the most. After 8. Na3 Bxa3 9. bxa3 0-0 10. Qc4 a5 is Matamoros Franco - Capaleoni, Capo d'Orso 2007. Now either 11. Bb2 or 11. d4 White looks comfortably better to me. Probably better is 10...b6, but after the somewhat forced 11. d4 Bb7 12. Bf4 Rc8 13. Rac1 c5 14. Rfd1 Qe7 15. dxc5! Rxc5 16. Bd6! Rxc4 17. Bxe7 Rxc1 18. Rxc1 Rc8 19. Rxc8 Bxc8 20. Nd4 White looks better in the ending.

7...c5 has also been played a couple of times, but I like White after 8. a5!, when White is eyeing all of Black's queenside dark squared weaknesses. Black can't hope to hold on to the pawn with ...b5, which would just leave weak pawns everywhere for White to clean up later. Suba - Van Der Sterren, Ostend 1989 continued 8...Bd6?! but after 9. Na3!N White should be much better. The point is that 9...Qxa5 10. Nc4 Qxa1 11. Nxd6+ Ke7 12. d4! is pretty crushing. 

7...Nc5N is suggested by Deep Rybka 3 x64, and it certainly looks natural, and probably best. After 8. Qxc4 Qd5! 9. Qh4!? I'm not so sure what best play is, but I still thought that White was probably a bit better after some analysis. Black will get to play ...Nb3, but White gets to develop with another piece with tempo after Nc3, etc...

Of course there are other moves and ideas, but it certainly seems more logical to me for White to continue with Qc2 instead of Qa4, reserved the option of a4, keeping Black cramped.
  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #87 - 09/24/09 at 08:54:50
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tracke wrote on 09/24/09 at 07:32:29:
winawer77 wrote on 09/22/09 at 17:38:59:

So far the Marin repertoire is compatible with Avrukh - 
1.c4 e6 or 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 e6 - can tranpose to Avrukh's Catalan or Tarrasch
1.c4 c6 2.d4 - to the Slav


Disucssing the move order 1.c4 e5 2.g3 c6 3.d4 e4 4.Nc3 d5 
Marin reveals that in Vol.2 he´ll deal with 1...c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 .
So no Avrukh lines after 1...c6!, just the usual Reti a la Kosten/Davies. 
Probably the same lines Watson will cover intensively in his Vol.4

Looking at 1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 e6 it would make much sense imo
if Marin also give 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3

tracke  Smiley


What do you recommend after 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 dc4 as given in my post above? I can't see a route to any advantage whatsoever in this line.

However, 1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 is an interesting alternative. The Gurevich System still appears to be the most promising Anti-Slav setup though, especially with 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 (4.Qc2 is imprecise in my view due to 4...g6).
  

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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #86 - 09/24/09 at 07:32:29
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winawer77 wrote on 09/22/09 at 17:38:59:

So far the Marin repertoire is compatible with Avrukh - 
1.c4 e6 or 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 e6 - can tranpose to Avrukh's Catalan or Tarrasch
1.c4 c6 2.d4 - to the Slav


Disucssing the move order 1.c4 e5 2.g3 c6 3.d4 e4 4.Nc3 d5 
Marin reveals that in Vol.2 he´ll deal with 1...c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 .
So no Avrukh lines after 1...c6!, just the usual Reti a la Kosten/Davies. 
Probably the same lines Watson will cover intensively in his Vol.4

Looking at 1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3 e6 it would make much sense imo
if Marin also give 1.c4 e6 2.g3 d5 3.Nf3

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #85 - 09/22/09 at 22:01:47
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So far Marin has dealt with 1.c4 e5 and Avrukh with 1.d4 d5, so you'll have to wait for their vol. 2 index to check for connections. Since both play the Catalan, you can expect it to be a safe alternative for Marin's lines with ...e6. Some may argue that you don't need the English when you play the Catalan, or that you can avoid more systems with the English, but as you say it's a matter of taste.

For those already with the book, could you please tell how Marin rates White's chances in the Keres with Bb4, e.g. 1.c4 e5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 c6 4.d4 Bb4 5.Bd2 Bxd2 6.Qxd2 d6 7.Nc3 0-0 8.e3 Qe7 [or else 8...Be6 with soon ...d5 to follow] ?

« Last Edit: 09/23/09 at 00:45:35 by »  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #84 - 09/22/09 at 19:01:53
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So if this repertoire is compatible with Avrukh's, in which lines is it better to transpose? Or is this a matter of taste?
  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #83 - 09/22/09 at 17:38:59
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All good points.

So far the Marin repertoire is compatible with Avrukh - 

1.c4 e6 or 1.c4 Nf6 2.g3 e6 - can tranpose to Avrukh's Catalan or Tarrasch
1.c4 c6 2.d4 - to the Slav

Also, for what its worth, starting with 1.c4 avoids the QGA and Chigorin.

If Avrukh recommends the fianchetto King's Indian, Benoni, Grunfeld etc - then a 1.c4 + 2.g3 move order is completely compatible. If not, then 1.c4 can still transpose, but you need to vary on move 2 and play 2.Nc3 or 2.Nf3 first.
  
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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #82 - 09/21/09 at 15:00:18
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If you like the Catalan and the Fianchetto KID, you can have an effective opening repertoire opening with 1. d4 1. c4 and 1. Nf3, varying your first move based on who your opponent is and what system you want to avoid on any given day. This was actually recommended by Donaldson in the first edition of his "Strategic Opening Repertoire."

If you intend to use 1. c4 as a transpositional device for some d4 openings however, one of the key questions is how you handle 1...Nf6. As White, it is important to make sure your second move  choice against 1...Nf6 is consistent with your choices against. 1...c6, 2...e6 and 1...e5 since by playing 1...Nf6, Black retains the option of playing those moves on the second move.
  

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Re: Grandmaster Repertoire 1.c4 by Marin
Reply #81 - 09/21/09 at 12:27:46
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As there have been a lot of posts in a short period of time and there have been a lot of points made, I will quote all of these and comment on each person's replies.

Quote:
If you don't understand the point of the english opening or transpositions to d4-openings you're surely better off getting a beginner's book on openings. To be fair, these transpositions are very common and intricate, and indeed one of the main advantages of the English is its transpositional potency. Watson's 'Mastering the Chess Openings Volume 3' is a great book for discussing these transpositional options, but will still provide the reader with high-quality analysis and a strong repertoire.

The simple view of the opening is that leads to positional play and let's white choose whether to enter d4 openings or not (vs other responses than 1...e5 and 1...c5). No Nimzo, Benkö, Benoni, Grünfeld and others. 

Books like Khalifman's on Kramnik's repertoire enters d4 openings. Kosten's and Marin's stay away from d4 openings. Obviously you can combine both approaches to keep opponents guessing. Wink

Versus 1...e6 and 2...d5 (I assume you mean white) can choose to play QGD, Catalan or Reti. Reti is the simpliest but has had a reputation of not putting much pressure on black. I'm keen to see what Marin suggests. Here is my evaluation of each option:
  • QGD: My personal favourite option as White, and if you want to fight tooth and nail for a theoretical edge, then this is the best option. Via. a 1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 move order you are not even committed to Nf3, so finding an option to your liking should not be at all difficult here. If you use a 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 e6 move order, this rules out the Exchange Variation, but the 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 and 4.Bg5 variations both offer White good chances of an edge, the second option being a good way to reduce the amount of theory in each line.
  • Catalan: Another good choice, but only if you like positional games and have some patience. I strongly recommend studying Avrukh's book before venturing into this territory.
  • Reti: I was initially skeptical of 3.b3 but recently I have analysed it and quite like it. You can avoid a lot of theory, but the flexible nature of White's setup still gives him a marginally more comfortable game. I don't like the move order 3.g3 as much, because of 3...dc4 4.Qa4 Nd7 5.Qc4 a6 6.Bg2 b5 7.Qc2 Bb7 8.0-0 c5 when Black has a comfortable game. If you want a low-theory option, this is definitely the route to take, although I can't find any edge for White in the 3...Nf6 4.Bb2 Be7 5.g3 0-0 6.Bg2 b6 variation. Nonetheless this will probably be Marin's choice as the other choices would make the reader reliant on buying Quality Chess's other books (not necessarily a bad thing in itself but obviously some potential customers would not like this). 

---

Compare two ways of aiming for the English: 1. Nf3 and 1. c4. The first option does not allow 1. ... e5 but Black can play 1. ... d5. The second option allows 1. ... e5, but it rules out an immediate ... d5. There is more to it than this. With 1.Nf3 you retain the option of playing a KIA, and with 1.c4 you retain the option of 2.Nc3/3.e4 against the Nimzo or KID, for example. You can also play 2.g3 although this will transpose to 2.Nc3 or 2.Nf3 (assuming Black does not play 1...e5, then it is a somewhat different matter).

Playing 1. c4 only makes sense if one can avoid the main lines of 1. d4 d5 with reasonable theoretical success. However I am not sure how White manages to avoid KID, GID or NID/4 (where Black does not engage in the center immediately) and how this affects the consistency of the repertoire. Only Marin's suggestions about Black's attempt to move towards a 1. d4 d5 line is relevant. I don't know if that has been mentioned already but I would like to know what he recommends against 1. ... c6, 1. ... e6 and 1. ... Nf6 & 2. ... e6. White can avoid the KID with the Reversed Sicilian setup (which is just equal, but even so Black must be on his toes), meet the Grunfeld with a few Anti-Grunfeld setups including an early Qa4+ and e4 Nc3 dc3 setups, meet 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 with the Mikenas Attack, the Zvjaginstev Attack or Kramnik's favoured 4.Qc2/4.Qb3 (not to mention the quiet 4.g3 and 2.Nf3 e6 3.g3), and the 4 setup is not so convincing after 1.c4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Nc3 b6 4.e4 Bb7 5.Bd3!. Against 1...c6/1...e6/1...Nf6, 2...e6, I have no idea what Marin recommends, but will take a stab and say 2.Nf3 d5 3.e3, 1...e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.b3 and 1...Nf6 2.Nc3 e6 3.e4, although this does heavily overlap with Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings.

---

I disagree. White can easily avoid GID and NID/4 (and others). This is important. It's a matter of taste if you prefer playing vs NID/4 (and others) or you think you have better chances of getting an advantage vs 1.c4 c5 or 1.c4 e5. [White can also try 1.Nf3 which avoids many e5 lines but it's less flexible.] Yes, he can easily avoid the GID/NID/4, but obtaining an advantage in these lines is not easy. The same applies for the 1.d4 lines, though. For what it's worth, the majority of GMs think White has better chances of an advantage after 1.c4 c5 compared to 1.c4 e5 although with best play Black should equalise in both lines (especially if Black avoids the Hedgehog which has been under heavy theoretical pressure of late).

---

"White can easily avoid GID and NID/4 (and others)"

Not so fast! It's not at all easy to avoid a King's Indian. To do so usually lands you in an inferior line. I've checked Dynamic English, Soltis' book, and others...usually a transposition to the Fianchetto KID is indicated or you get a sloppy line that actually works against White. At least in my study and experience this has been the case. Well 1.e4 is one way to avoid a King's Indian. Wink Seriously, if you want to avoid a pure KID just avoid d4, although don't expect to gain any advantage out of the opening. I assume this is what you mean, and I agree with you.

---

You mean avoid as in "Opening for White according to Kramnik"? I don't think you can classify those "Anti-X" systems as pure English positions. At best they are hybrids and you can not do without 1. d4 theory. I'm not sure what you mean by this, can you give me some examples? If you mean the 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Qc2 setup, then these are not hybrids as White will usually play d3 instead of d4 to control the e4-square and generate play along the long diagonal with b4 and Bb2, especially if Black has already played ...Bc3.

---

The anti-Grünfeld, the anti-Nimzo and and anti-4 are of course somewhat similar to the respective d4 opening, but they are different and can be a very good reason to play 1.c4 (or 1.Nf3). More so than your suggestion of anti-QGD, in my opinion. The anti-QGD's, QGA's and Slav's are admittedly a fully valid reason in their own right. Avoiding the Slav is especially tempting given its very high theoretical reputation at present, and the Gurevich system does give White a very easy to play attacking system that forces Black to defend with precision. The same could be said of 4.g4 against the Nimzo-English - easy to play (although creativity is a large bonus), and hard for Black to defend against. This may change as the theory of these variations become more and more detailed and more accurate defensive resources are found for Black.

---

I didn't include the KID in my list. "And others" referred to the Budapest gambit and similar d4 openings. (I should have mentioned that.) Black can play in KID-style vs the english without d4 with reasonable success. Agreed. It is noteworthy that in 'A Strategic Opening Repertoire for White', advocating 1.c4, 2.Nf3 and 3.g3, the authors spend nearly half the book on this system alone, speaking volumes about the KID's high reputation as an antidote to English setups. Personally I would have chosen the Fianchetto Variation over the Reversed Sicilian for the book, but that is an entirely different subject matter.


And if you got this far...1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.b4 is another quite interesting anti-KID setup which at least contains some surprise value unlike the majority of other anti-KID's.
  

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