Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Beating the database generation (Read 5483 times)
Schaakhamster
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #11 - 03/06/09 at 05:37:53
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An interesting blogpost I think. I especially found fascinating how he made a implicit division between professional players and others.
  
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MNb
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #10 - 03/06/09 at 03:49:30
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Yeah yeah, as I already wrote, all in all Spraggett is right. My point is just that in general the change is not that big. Maybe that is the fact for him, maybe I am just writing about things I know zero about with my ELO 1800. But when reading the article I had a deja vu - in the 80's I have heard some players discussing this very problem of opponents especially preparing for you. And the remedy was exactly the same.
Heck, even with my ELO 1800 I have met opponents who especially prepared for me since a long time. But I admit that this did not happen in grand swiss tournaments. At the other hand it always has been common in the highest classes of Dutch team competition.

Paddy wrote on 03/05/09 at 17:40:11:
In this particular article, Spraggett got nothing wrong as far as I can see.

Thanks, that is comforting, I already assumed that my reading skills were even poorer than I thought. I had missed the fact that the myth of the first opening theoretician was a quote from Lasker.
  

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Paddy
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #9 - 03/05/09 at 17:40:11
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MNb wrote on 03/05/09 at 13:55:20:
Paddy wrote on 03/03/09 at 11:26:16:
The strong and still very active Canadian GM Kevin Spraggett (2585 FIDE, born 1954) has some interesting thoughts (and some terrible jokes) at his blog.


I did not read any joke, terrible or not  Huh

Spraggett got a few details wrong. Opening theory is as old as chess itself, so I assume that his argument about the first opening theoretician is meant as a myth.
But all in all he is right; if prepared opponents are a problem to you, expand your repertoire. Except that this is nothing new - I have read this advise 20, 25 years ago somewhere. And GM Timman always has had a broad repertoire, exactly for this reason. There are very likely earlier examples to find.

Spraggett is just a bit late.


Well, perhaps "joke" was the wrong word - "attempts at humour" might be more accurate. You will see what I mean if you look at the whole of his blog.

In this particular article, Spraggett got nothing wrong as far as I can see.

" I assume that his argument about the first opening theoretician is meant as a myth." 
MNb - He is quoting Lasker here.

It is clear from Spraggett's article that he is well aware that collecting and studying games and variations is not a modern phenomenon, but he is arguing that the sheer volume of data now available, and the availability of powerful IT tools with which today's players can process this data, has brought about a huge change to our game, one that especially impacts on the lives of sub-elite professional players like himself, who try to make their living playing in international opens.

Rather than complaining, giving up, taking up poker or wanting to change the game of chess somehow (e.g. Fischer-Random), Spraggett is suggesting that such players as himself (not necessarily every chessplayer) should take up the challenge, and the best way to do this is to have a broad repertoire (like Larsen - of course he could also have mentioned Timman, or Miles for that matter, ed. 06.03.09 or, from earlier times Bronstein or his hero Tartakower) and present a "moving target".

I feel that this is a positive response, one that is good for the future of our game and therefore one that should be applauded, even if we patzers do not feel we have the need, the desire or the capacity to follow his lead.
« Last Edit: 03/06/09 at 10:05:23 by Paddy »  
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MNb
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #8 - 03/05/09 at 13:55:20
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Paddy wrote on 03/03/09 at 11:26:16:
The strong and still very active Canadian GM Kevin Spraggett (2585 FIDE, born 1954) has some interesting thoughts (and some terrible jokes) at his blog.


I did not read any joke, terrible or not  Huh

Spraggett got a few details wrong. Opening theory is as old as chess itself, so I assume that his argument about the first opening theoretician is meant as a myth.
But all in all he is right; if prepared opponents are a problem to you, expand your repertoire. Except that this is nothing new - I have read this advise 20, 25 years ago somewhere. And GM Timman always has had a broad repertoire, exactly for this reason. There are very likely earlier examples to find.

Spraggett is just a bit late.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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MarinFan
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #7 - 03/05/09 at 11:00:19
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Oh dear I don't think I will be following Spraggett's advice. Don't think will be getting good results if have to rely on my natural skill and talent.
  
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Antillian
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #6 - 03/04/09 at 14:30:59
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Yes, on reading the full article now, it seems the context is indeed with respect to avoiding the draw.
  

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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #5 - 03/04/09 at 13:20:52
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Antillian wrote on 03/04/09 at 12:15:37:
I do wonder who Spragget was referring to when he said "serious chess player". While I think Spragget has a point, I think this problem of database generation is overrated at any but the highest levels of chess.

On the contrary, I think there is a case to be made for knowing your opening and being confident enough in your knowledge of your opening that you are not afraid of your opponent's preparation.


well Spraggett used to have a very narrow opening repertoire but has apparently been mixing it up lately. 

Perhaps it has to do with his status as a professional player that has to ply his trade in opens where success depends on dispatching weaker opponents, especially with black. When these players use databases and look for drawing lines against your black repertoire (which are aviable in most openings) I can imagine it can be frustrating. It might make big difference in earnings.

Of course, for us average joes, knowing one repetoire decently will get you along nicely. 
  
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Antillian
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #4 - 03/04/09 at 12:15:37
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I do wonder who Spragget was referring to when he said "serious chess player". While I think Spragget has a point, I think this problem of database generation is overrated at any but the highest levels of chess.

On the contrary, I think there is a case to be made for knowing your opening and being confident enough in your knowledge of your opening that you are not afraid of your opponent's preparation.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #3 - 03/04/09 at 11:51:13
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I think a new trend may emerge in the coming years : looking for fresh positions, which suits the players but not his opponent, even if these positions are almost equal from a theoretical perspective.

I can see this trend in Carlsen's games : he doesn't try to bamboozle his opponents with mighty computer novelties, but rather goes his own way and sometimes settles for simple positions (for example his play as white against the Sicilian Najdorf) from where his talent can express itself.

I think that's a very nice trend for chess fans, because it could mean that chess will revert to what it is really : a human minds contest, rather than a distance Rybka-struggle

At the amateur level, I made the switch myself a few years ago and I'm very happy with it. I'm trying to play unusual systems, which may unsettle my opponent, rather than heavy main-lines, and I'm having very satisfactory results so far + an increased playing pleasure !
  

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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #2 - 03/04/09 at 11:28:23
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Vassily Ivanchuk's solution to this 'problem' of heavy pre-game preparation is to be able to play absolutely any opening, to an even greater extent than the Larsen example mentioned by Spraggett. It is worthwhile noting that the Tal quote that 'his preparation (for Larsen) ended when he decided to play 1.e4' now has a modern counterpart: in the latest NIC Magazine, Topalov states in his annotations to Topalov-Ivanchuk, Pearl Spring 2008 that 'against Ivanchuk it is impossible to prepare' or something similar.

Obviously to do this successfully would be impossible for any player that does not have a GM title, so the best 'solution' for an untitled player would be to simply have 2-3 or 3-4 options depending on opponents, tournaments and, perhaps most importantly, the number of your games in the database.
  

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Re: Beating the database generation
Reply #1 - 03/03/09 at 11:39:58
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I think this is a question of colour.

With White I use I play "serve and volley" (like Roger Federer) - 1.e4 and go for the mainlines. I only look up databases when I am playing White.

With Black I try to be a moving target - playing 1...e5, 1...e6, 1...c5 against 1.e4 and KingsIndian, NimzoQueensIndian and SlavSemislav against 1.d4. I also used the Budapest Gambit and the Dutch occasionally. I dont care about Database here - just a quick look if he reguarely plays a strange line (then I would try to find a surprising answer there).

Sometimes my opponent uses the same tactics - if it was with White I always got the better position with Black (e.g. a d4-player choosing e4), because he somehow gave away the natural advantage. I simply play my main lines then and let me show what he has in his sleeve (usually not much).  If it was with Black (Thats when I looked up something in the database to prepare and he deviated) very often original play resulted, cause in that case I try to "turn off my opening book" and play the position without trying to remember whats recommended.

Successful? - Well... finally it all depends on the strength of the opponents - thats the simple conclusion.

Anyway I have a lot of fun with this approach.
  
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Paddy
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Beating the database generation
03/03/09 at 11:26:16
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The strong and still very active Canadian GM Kevin Spraggett (2585 FIDE, born 1954) has some interesting thoughts (and some terrible jokes) at his blog. 

This stood out for me:

"I believe that the serious chessplayer must find a way to reduce the effectiveness of his opponent's pre-game preparation. To do this, I feel it is necessary for the serious player to become less predictable with his choices of opening . If his opponent can no longer have, say for the sake of convenience, a 90% chance of getting the position that he has in his hotel room and instead only has a 25% of getting the position that he wants, then that is already big progress! (...)

But in order to do this effectively, the chessplayer must increase the number of openings that he is willing to play. That is, the modern tournament competitor must start to play 2 or 3 times the number of different openings that he currently finds in his opening repertoire. You must become a moving target! Yes, a lot of work, you say?. And you are right, but there is a bright side: you don't need to know each opening perfectly, since your opponent will also be in the same situation! The game outcome will become more influenced by natural skill and talent!"

http://kevinspraggett.blogspot.com/2008/07/reflections-on-database-generation.ht...
  
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