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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!? (Read 14033 times)
hiperburn
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #10 - 03/26/09 at 13:06:05
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Would you tell me please why you gave Nd2 an exclamation mark? So far I've always thought Qe2 was more dangerous. I'm thinking about Grischuk - Minasian 1999. According to Grischuk's analysis, White is cleary better. Balck can improve, but White is still a bit ahead. I didn't found any games that contradict this assesment. Did I missed something?
Thanks a lot and kind regards [/quote]


Well, 4.Nd2 is at least more annoying for Black than 4.Qe2 because after 3…Nf6!? Black is hoping for 4.Qe2 Nc6!? 5.c3 e5! etc. (more or less unorthodox and unclear line) while after 4.Nd2 e6 5.Nf3 c5 6.c3! etc. Black is ‘tricked’ into a worsened, bored and highly orthodox French defence. Why to play Owen just to get into that French … So, after 4.Nd2! Black could consider 4…Nc6!? (not considered from the ‘theory’ according to my knowledge). 
Best regards,
Nick      


  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #9 - 03/24/09 at 03:16:54
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James_Ells wrote on 03/23/09 at 22:04:50:
Would you tell me please why you gave Nd2 an exclamation mark? So far I've always thought Qe2 was more dangerous. I'm thinking about Grischuk - Minasian 1999. According to Grischuk's analysis, White is cleary better.


You are much better informed than I am. Please forget my "!".
  
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James_Ells
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #8 - 03/23/09 at 22:04:50
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/19/09 at 06:38:32:
hiperburn wrote on 03/17/09 at 08:27:43:
After 4…Nc6!!? White has three valuable alternatives, say a) 5.c3; 
b) 5.d5 and c) 5.e5

a) 5.c3 e5 6.Ne2 {Better was 6.d5! (or 6.Nf3) 6…Nb8! 7.Ngf3 d6 +=}

1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!? is a sharp idea. It would be interesting to compare its merits with 3...Nc6 e.g. 4.c3 e5! which was analyzed by Maurits Wind in Kaissiber 29 (2007) on nine pages. Just one point: after 4...Nc6 5.c3 e5 6.d5! hippochess prefers 6...Nb8! +=, while Maurits in the sequence 3...Nc6 4.c3 e5 5.d5 played 5...Nce7 (perhaps he didn't like Nb8 because of 6.f4!, which obviously in hippochess' line isn't possible) 6.Nf3 Ng6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Nbd2 and after a few more moves Black was able to equalize. So perhaps hippochess should also consider 6...Ne7 7.Ngf3 Ng6 when he would enter Wind's analysis. 

Personally I'd have preferred to see Owen's Defence in the 1.e4 ... section. It is an old opening with its roots in the 19th century, when 1.e4 was the standard move. The English Defence (anything with b6 plus c2-c4) obviously belongs to the "Daring Defences to 1.d4", but for reasons of history and "symmetry" the Owen's should belong to 1.e4. 

Speaking of symmetry, why has the 1.e4... section a neutral name, while the other section is named "Daring Defences to 1.d4..."? I propose to change the former to "Elaborate Efforts to 1.e4..."


Would you tell me please why you gave Nd2 an exclamation mark? So far I've always thought Qe2 was more dangerous. I'm thinking about Grischuk - Minasian 1999. According to Grischuk's analysis, White is cleary better. Balck can improve, but White is still a bit ahead. I didn't found any games that contradict this assesment. Did I missed something?
Thanks a lot and kind regards
  
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Matemax
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #7 - 03/19/09 at 09:00:29
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 03/19/09 at 08:09:54:
The "less" spoils the alliteration.

OK - How about "Equalizing Efforts to 1.e4"  Smiley
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #6 - 03/19/09 at 08:36:58
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Oh, in my last post I had overlooked the "e5". Yes, that's fine with me.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #5 - 03/19/09 at 08:09:54
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The "less" spoils the alliteration.
  
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Matemax
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #4 - 03/19/09 at 07:55:44
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Quote:
"Elaborate Efforts to 1.e4..."

In this case: 1.e4e5 to be renamed to "Less Elaborate Efforts to 1.e4..."  Wink
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #3 - 03/19/09 at 06:38:32
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hiperburn wrote on 03/17/09 at 08:27:43:
After 4…Nc6!!? White has three valuable alternatives, say a) 5.c3; 
b) 5.d5 and c) 5.e5

a) 5.c3 e5 6.Ne2 {Better was 6.d5! (or 6.Nf3) 6…Nb8! 7.Ngf3 d6 +=}

1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!? is a sharp idea. It would be interesting to compare its merits with 3...Nc6 e.g. 4.c3 e5! which was analyzed by Maurits Wind in Kaissiber 29 (2007) on nine pages. Just one point: after 4...Nc6 5.c3 e5 6.d5! hippochess prefers 6...Nb8! +=, while Maurits in the sequence 3...Nc6 4.c3 e5 5.d5 played 5...Nce7 (perhaps he didn't like Nb8 because of 6.f4!, which obviously in hippochess' line isn't possible) 6.Nf3 Ng6 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Nbd2 and after a few more moves Black was able to equalize. So perhaps hippochess should also consider 6...Ne7 7.Ngf3 Ng6 when he would enter Wind's analysis. 

Personally I'd have preferred to see Owen's Defence in the 1.e4 ... section. It is an old opening with its roots in the 19th century, when 1.e4 was the standard move. The English Defence (anything with b6 plus c2-c4) obviously belongs to the "Daring Defences to 1.d4", but for reasons of history and "symmetry" the Owen's should belong to 1.e4. 

Speaking of symmetry, why has the 1.e4... section a neutral name, while the other section is named "Daring Defences to 1.d4..."? I propose to change the former to "Elaborate Efforts to 1.e4..."
  
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #2 - 03/17/09 at 09:44:02
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[quote]Wrong thread. This belongs under the '1.e4 ...' section. [/quote]

Historically, the Owen's has often been treated in the Daring Defences section, too. I've never, when posting about it, known whether to post there or in 1. e4. It would be good to have some official clarification on this -- which would mean, I guess, clarification on the placement of some other openings too.

One thing's for certain -- this thread is in the wrong forum, as TN says. In my experience Moderators are often slow in dealing with this issue, so I hope the thread wil be moved to the right place pronto, and then we can take the forum it's moved to as henceforward the correct site for discussion of the Owen's.
  
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Re: 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
Reply #1 - 03/17/09 at 09:12:20
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Wrong thread. This belongs under the '1.e4 ...' section. 

Edit: Or alternatively the 'Daring Defences to 1.d4' section, as it has been moved here.

« Last Edit: 03/17/09 at 11:08:34 by TN »  
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hiperburn
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1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!?
03/17/09 at 08:27:43
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Below is considered the line 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! and now 4…Nc6!? as an alternative to the `French approach' starting out with 3…e6 and/or 4…e6.

After 4…Nc6!!? White has three valuable alternatives, say a) 5.c3; 
b) 5.d5 and c) 5.e5

a) 5.c3 e5 6.Ne2 {Better was 6.d5! (or 6.Nf3) 6…Nb8! 7.Ngf3 d6 +=}
6...d5! = 7.exd5?! Qxd5=+ 8.0-0? Nb4!-/+ 9.Nf3? Nxd3-+ 10.Qxd3 e4 0-1 A. Rawlinson (2173) – A. Summerscale (2479), Tch (Men) 2005/2006 ENG 2006.

b) 5.d5 is harmless for Black after 5…Ne5 6.Be2 e6! 7.c4 b5!? = or ...Bc5 =

c) 5.e5 {Probably White’s best try.} 5…Nd5 {… and an interesting and playable version of the Alekhine defence is obtained!?} and now
c1) 6.Be4 e6 7.c3 d6 8.Ngf3 Qd7 9. 0-0 dxe5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. dxe5 0-0-0 12. a4 f5! complex, sharp and about level.

c2) 6.c3 e6 7.Ndf3 (7.Ne4!?) 7...d6 8.Ne2 dxe5 9.dxe5 Qd7 10. 0-0
Rd8! 11. Bc2 Nde7 12. Qe1!? (12.Bg5!?) 12…Ng6 13. Be4 Be7 = Notice
that here the immediate 10.b4?! fails to 10…Ndxb4! 11. cxb4 Bxb4+
12.Kf1 Rd8 =+

c3) 6.Ndf3 e6 7.c4 Nde7 8.Ne2 d6 9.exd6 Qxd6 (or 9…cxd6!? +=) 10.Bf4
Qd7 11. 0-0 Ng6 12.Bg3 Bd6 =

These are just sample variations. Notice that the line 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6!? 4.Nd2! Nc6!? is even not mentioned in the recent Bauer's book `play 1…b6'. He only mentioned that after 4.Nd2 `…the game is likely to take the contours of the French defence' and also that this would be a slightly worsened version of the French defence. Further, I think the Owen defence is a bit more unorthodox opening than the French defence. So, I think a few fans of the Owen defence will going to play it just in order to get into a …worsened (+ highly orthodox) version of the French defence. So, lets try 4…Nc6!?   
Below are given all the considered sample lines in pgn format.

Any comments and suggestions are welcomed! 

Best regards,
Nick

[Event "Tch (Men) 2005/2006 ENG"]
[Site "ENG"]
[Date "2006.02.12"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Rawlinson, Aidan"]
[Black "Summerscale, Aaron"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B00"]
[WhiteElo "2173"]
[BlackElo "2479"]

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3. Bd3 Nf6 4. Nd2 Nc6 5. c3 (5. d5 Ne5 6. Be2 e6
7. c4 b5 (
7... Bc5)) (5. e5 Nd5 6. Be4 (6. c3 e6 7. Ndf3 (7. Ne4) 7... d6 8.
Ne2 dxe5 9.
dxe5 Qd7 $11 10. b4 (10. O-O Rd8 11. Bc2 Nde7 12. Qe1 (12. Bg5) 12...
Ng6 13.
Bg5 Be7) 10... Ndxb4 11. cxb4 Bxb4+ 12. Kf1 Rd8) (6. c4 Ndb4 7. Bb1
Nxd4 8.
Ngf3 Nxf3+ 9. Nxf3 e6 10. a3 Nc6 $13) (6. Ndf3 e6 7. c4 Nde7 8. Ne2
d6 9. exd6
Qxd6 (9... cxd6) 10. Bf4 Qd7 11. O-O Ng6 12. Bg3 Bd6) 6... e6 7. c3
d6 8. Ngf3
Qd7 $14 9. O-O dxe5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. dxe5 O-O-O 12. a4 f5) 5... e5
6. Ne2 (6.
d5 Nb8 7. Ngf3 d6 $14) 6... d5 7. exd5 Qxd5 $15 8. O-O Nb4 9. Nf3
Nxd3 $19 10.
Qxd3 e4 0-1
  
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