Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) KID for BLACK player (Read 11706 times)
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #21 - 03/27/09 at 11:46:03
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/27/09 at 02:55:05:

ECO is "a pillar of the modern chess world" and that club players should make use of it so as not to "reinvent the wheel.")  


Good opening books always have ECO and Informator in their bibliography. So for me it's more or less the other way round. When I cross check my opening books with ECO I find that everything relevant made it into them.
But I agree with your views on repertoire books, in general. I have stopped buying them. Of course a repertoire book with an encyclopedian approach - like Avrukh's - is something else.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #20 - 03/27/09 at 06:32:23
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/27/09 at 02:55:05:
The idea that such books provide a "total solution" sounds like approximately what I had in mind with the "special and exclusive usefulness" bit.

Each to his own fascination; for my part I'm rather fascinated that ECO (and also, relatedly, the Informant) seems so often ignored.  Regarding my view that it is a useful reference, I might mention in my "defense" that I've noticed similar statements rather recently by Carsten Hansen, John Watson, Glenn Flear and Lev Alburt.  (I remember the first three mentioning that they still use it themselves; Alburt -- a several-time US champion -- wrote an article on the subject, saying e.g. that ECO is "a pillar of the modern chess world" and that club players should make use of it so as not to "reinvent the wheel.")  


well Alburt is responsable for Chess Openings Explained white/black which, as I read here on the forum, might (especially the white version) considered the moste "vile" mainstream repertoire book of the last few years. 

I wondered what changed his mind (it might have been the almighty dollar)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #19 - 03/27/09 at 02:55:05
Post Tools
The idea that such books provide a "total solution" sounds like approximately what I had in mind with the "special and exclusive usefulness" bit.

Each to his own fascination; for my part I'm rather fascinated that ECO (and also, relatedly, the Informant) seems so often ignored.  Regarding my view that it is a useful reference, I might mention in my "defense" that I've noticed similar statements rather recently by Carsten Hansen, John Watson, Glenn Flear and Lev Alburt.  (I remember the first three mentioning that they still use it themselves; Alburt -- a several-time US champion -- wrote an article on the subject, saying e.g. that ECO is "a pillar of the modern chess world" and that club players should make use of it so as not to "reinvent the wheel.")
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1757
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #18 - 03/27/09 at 00:18:29
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/26/09 at 16:39:10:
If repertoire books are "just somebody saying 'well I think this might be interesting to play' " (people also say that kind of thing in e.g. Informants, NIC Yearbooks and Chesspub updates), I'm not sure why we see so many things like 

"we really need more repertoire books on x,y, and z"

"this [possibly forthcoming] repertoire book is just what I need"

"there hasn't been a good repertoire book on x in several whole years"

questions as to whether there is any theory on line x, which isn't covered in some recent repertoire book, when in many cases it is readily found in a general source (e.g. ECO)

assumptions/implications that line x is better than the alternatives because it was advocated in a recent repertoire book 



The "gripe" is not really with the existence of repertoire books, but with the seemingly insatiable appetite for them/the idea that they have a special and exclusive usefulness.


Surely they do. Otherwise, why do you think so many continue to be published. Yes, you are right in the sense that of course, there are many other ways to research and develop a  repertoire. But a repertoire book helps immensely. People use these books in many different ways. But I think sometimes persons expect too much from these books. No repertoire book can provide a total solution, which I think many persons expect. They should all be regarded as "starter" books.   

But in any case, to each his own. For example, I find it fascinating that you refer to ECO so much, which I hardly consider useful. But we are all different and find value in different things.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #17 - 03/26/09 at 23:56:36
Post Tools
I'd make some points like

There is value and interest in looking at a variety of stuff and deciding what lines you want to play (relating to what sort of structures you tend to prefer, for example), rather than relying on the choices of repertoire-book authors. 

The choices made in such books have to do to a large degree with the tastes of the authors; for example there are no doubt numerous KID repertoires which are as good as whichever one Bologan might advocate. 

Opening-related explanations are found not only in repertoire books (nor only in opening books); the same goes for games and annotations by strong players who specialize in a given opening.   

Relying to a great degree on lines advocated in recent repertoire books presumably increases your chances of running into well-prepared opponents.


When I see things like 1700-players buying highbrow repertoire books (and feeding lines from them through analysis engines), people getting antsy because there hasn’t been a repertoire book published on their favorite defense in the last 3 years, and people asking “what opening should I play and which book/video should I get on it?”, I think things may be a little out of kilter …
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cyronix
Ex Member
*



Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #16 - 03/26/09 at 21:35:48
Post Tools
the only question that remains is if Bologan is really willing to reveal any stuff that he wants to play himself against future opponents ... so he might chose minor lines instead
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1849
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #15 - 03/26/09 at 20:53:50
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/26/09 at 16:39:10:

The "gripe" is not really with the existence of repertoire books, but with the seemingly insatiable appetite for them/the idea that they have a special and exclusive usefulness.


They do! I'm not Bologan. If he takes all of the information and does the work for me, there's no question that he'll do a better job of finding good, sound lines to play. 

There's also a second bonus that Bologan's main weapon is the KID. He's going to give you insights (hopefully) that you couldn't get yourself. He's got OTB experience with this opening that we can't dream of. Repertoire books are not only lines, but also explanations. 

If those two reasons special and exclusive, I'm not positive what is.  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #14 - 03/26/09 at 18:01:56
Post Tools
Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/26/09 at 12:57:12:


What I´m missing is a complete opening book on the KID covering all lines, trying to give an objective assessment of the lines. Still I can understand that such a book is not likely to come out nowadays. It would be a huge task, and there is still the danger that it will be dated a few months after it came out.


No such book will ever be seen again, since the scope of theory is too vast and, as you point out, the rate of innovation is too great.   

What is left is the chess data base, but it suffers from being a mere collection of games, often of doubtful provenance and questionable theoretical validity.  It is far from a tree of well-considered variations.   

It is in the gap between the two that Tony makes his money, I guess.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #13 - 03/26/09 at 16:39:10
Post Tools
If repertoire books are "just somebody saying 'well I think this might be interesting to play' " (people also say that kind of thing in e.g. Informants, NIC Yearbooks and Chesspub updates), I'm not sure why we see so many things like 

"we really need more repertoire books on x,y, and z"

"this [possibly forthcoming] repertoire book is just what I need"

"there hasn't been a good repertoire book on x in several whole years"

questions as to whether there is any theory on line x, which isn't covered in some recent repertoire book, when in many cases it is readily found in a general source (e.g. ECO)

assumptions/implications that line x is better than the alternatives because it was advocated in a recent repertoire book 



The "gripe" is not really with the existence of repertoire books, but with the seemingly insatiable appetite for them/the idea that they have a special and exclusive usefulness.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #12 - 03/26/09 at 15:58:07
Post Tools
Quote:
There is nobody holding a shotgun to your head screaming: "you have to read/play this!"

Seems like you have never been to my chessclub  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #11 - 03/26/09 at 15:10:18
Post Tools
Matemax wrote on 03/26/09 at 06:55:33:
kylemeister wrote on 03/25/09 at 23:45:00:
Just imagine, once upon a time players managed to choose openings/variations to play, and follow developments in them, without repertoire books ...

You really (eh, really?) mean "working on your chess" - brave! Dont tell the consume generation....  Huh


well it has become a lot more work then "once upon a time". 

I don't really get the gripe vs repertoire books. It is just somebody saying: "well I think this might be interesting to play". There is nobody holding a shotgun to your head screaming: "you have to read/play this!".

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rossia
Senior Member
****
Offline


Saw: "Game Over!"

Posts: 335
Location: Irkutsk
Joined: 09/17/07
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #10 - 03/26/09 at 14:15:09
Post Tools
Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/26/09 at 12:57:12:

That´s the reason why I am not really looking forward to a repertoire book. It narrows blacks opening choice, and maybe his understanding of the opening.


If you look at ECO codes E60-E99, just like Ruy Lopez C60-C99, then you will immediately see that this can not happen.

Neither we have such book for Ruy Lopez, nor will we have for KID.

Everyone is invited to choose his/her path in theory jungle, and rightly there lies a chess mastery Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Lou_Cyber
Full Member
***
Offline


"I didn´t understand that.
It must be true."

Posts: 237
Location: Rendsburg
Joined: 01/28/05
Gender: Male
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #9 - 03/26/09 at 12:57:12
Post Tools
Imho the books from Golubev and Gallagher are excellent repertoire books. They don´t even pretend to cover all variations, but concentrate on one or two lines against the various main variations.

What I´m missing is a complete opening book on the KID covering all lines, trying to give an objective assessment of the lines. Still I can understand that such a book is not likely to come out nowadays. It would be a huge task, and there is still the danger that it will be dated a few months after it came out.

That´s the reason why I am not really looking forward to a repertoire book. It narrows blacks opening choice, and maybe his understanding of the opening.
  

If you try, you may lose. If you don´t try, you have lost.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Matemax
God Member
*****
Offline


Chesspub gives you strength!

Posts: 1302
Joined: 11/04/07
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #8 - 03/26/09 at 06:55:33
Post Tools
kylemeister wrote on 03/25/09 at 23:45:00:
Just imagine, once upon a time players managed to choose openings/variations to play, and follow developments in them, without repertoire books ...

You really (eh, really?) mean "working on your chess" - brave! Dont tell the consume generation....  Huh
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4989
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: KID for BLACK player
Reply #7 - 03/25/09 at 23:45:00
Post Tools
Just imagine, once upon a time players managed to choose openings/variations to play, and follow developments in them, without repertoire books ...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo