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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Stonewall dutch (Read 23357 times)
kylemeister
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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #9 - 05/13/09 at 04:26:24
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Well, 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c6 4. Qc2 Nf6 often doesn't become a Closed Catalan, though it certainly could.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #8 - 05/13/09 at 03:40:42
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tafl wrote on 05/12/09 at 06:19:39:
In a way 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Nc3 is an excellent anti-Stonewall weapon as 4...d5?! 5.Bf4 is very difficult for Black. On the other hand this probably is a rather harmless system after Black's best move 4...Bb4. In my database White scores only 45% in 1187 games. Statistically 5.Qb3 looks best (the only move to score over 50%). A mainline seems to run 5...a5 6.g3 b6 7.Bg2 Bb7 8.O-O O-O when Black still scores well above 50% but with some notable names (Smyslov, Sakaev, Malaniuk, Yudashin, Gurevich etc.) on White's side.


White can also use 4. Qc2!? as a waiting move in that line, and end up going for the the d4/c4/Nf3/Nc3 structure since the white Q ends up on c2 anyway in those lines. If black plays 4...d5 then 5.Bf4!

It side-steps all of the ...Bb4 lines, at any rate. Black has no way to make use of the Queen move, except perhaps going into an IZ Dutch (usually not a Stonewall player's repetoire), where the queen move is less than ideal.

At any rate, whatever the antidote would be to 4.Qc2, it wouldn't be the Stonewall.

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Another challenge if you go for the d4, c4, Nf3, Nc3 set-up is the move-order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 when White must go for the Noteboom (4.Nf3 dxc4), the Marshall (4.e4!?) or allow a transposition to the Stonewall with 4.g3 f5 or 4.e3 Bd6 5.Nf3 f5.


4.Qc2 can be used (again) as a transpositional tool to reach the Nf3/Nc3 system (indeed it is how I do it). As soon as black commits to ...Nf6 it simply becomes a Closed Catalan (which is something white certainly does not fear).

As soon as black commits to ...f5 white has Bf4 immediately, and only then slides into the Nc3/Nf3/Qc2/e3/Bd3 structure.
  

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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #7 - 05/12/09 at 06:19:39
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The move-order 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 (planning Nh3) allows 4...Bb4+!? on which there is a very thought provoking article in Secrets of Opening Surprises no. 9 by Glek. In my opinion this is much more than a normal SOS article. If this option doesn't bother White, then 4.c4 is an excellent weapon against the Stonewall. However, White must also decide how to handle 4...c6, as 5.Nh3 is too early. 5.Nd2 and 5.Qc2 probably are best but not necessarily ideal moves in a Nh3 Stonewall.

In a way 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nf3 e6 4.Nc3 is an excellent anti-Stonewall weapon as 4...d5?! 5.Bf4 is very difficult for Black. On the other hand this probably is a rather harmless system after Black's best move 4...Bb4. In my database White scores only 45% in 1187 games. Statistically 5.Qb3 looks best (the only move to score over 50%). A mainline seems to run 5...a5 6.g3 b6 7.Bg2 Bb7 8.O-O O-O when Black still scores well above 50% but with some notable names (Smyslov, Sakaev, Malaniuk, Yudashin, Gurevich etc.) on White's side.

Another challenge if you go for the d4, c4, Nf3, Nc3 set-up is the move-order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 when White must go for the Noteboom (4.Nf3 dxc4), the Marshall (4.e4!?) or allow a transposition to the Stonewall with 4.g3 f5 or 4.e3 Bd6 5.Nf3 f5.

A possibly underestimated option is 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 d5 5.c4 c6 6.Bf4!?. White scores well in the 45 games I find in my database. It probably doesn't offer anything against a well prepared Black but could confuse a lot of those lazy souls (me included!) who enjoy the Modern ...Bd6 Stonewall.
  

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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #6 - 05/12/09 at 01:09:11
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I've been using a Nf3/c4/d4/Nc3/Qc2/Bf4/e3/Bd3 structure against the Stonewall forever. If black plays Ne4, then g4 is coming. If black doesn't play Ne4 then white can play cxd5, and force black to respond cxd5, since otherwise he loses a pawn.

I make sure I play Bf4 before black can get in ...Bd6. I play an early Qc2 if they try to get it from a Noteboom Semi-Slav move order.

I've never had a single issue handling Stonewall players...
  

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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #5 - 05/11/09 at 22:15:08
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Antillian wrote on 05/11/09 at 11:04:57:
You may want to get a hold of Avrukh's GM Repertoire 2 which will be due out in a month or two.


Yes...this is a possibility. Otherwise I think MNb:s post on the Nh3 system is interesting. I will probably go for the Nh3-system or possibly try J. Cox suggestion despite the fact that I am a bit suspicious about it. But  the queenside play mentioned by thibdb13 has to be studied...interesting as it is.

The Stonewall problem still feels unsolved. But I could be a bit closer.

What about the b3 system ? Anyone playing or played it ?
  

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  where the path back out is only broad enough for one of you." (((Mikhail Tal)))
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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #4 - 05/11/09 at 12:37:27
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1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.Nf3 d5 5.c4 c6 6.0-0 Is what I play,
(If now 6...Be7 then 7.b3 followed by Ba3 is strong (Dark-square-terror)), Most often I encounter 6...Bd6 7.b3 Qe7 But I'm not really happy with my current repetoire against the dutch.
  

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MNb
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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #3 - 05/11/09 at 11:20:06
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Bogojump wrote on 05/11/09 at 10:11:26:
I possibly could find interesting is  Nh3-system but then black often plays the bishop back to e7 and the knight just look stupid on h3.

The idea of the Nh3-system is to transfer it via f4 to d3, which is perfectly possible after ...Be7. The manoeuvre is not a loss of tempo compared to Ng1-f3-e1-d3.

Bogojump wrote on 05/11/09 at 10:11:26:
Is there anyone here who is playing against the Stonewall dutch with confidence and has found something good. Any 1.d4 player who is really happy facing the Stonewall ?   Grin and how do you face it ?

Help!!  Lips Sealed


My preference is the Rubinstein (2.c4, 3.Nc3, 4.e3), castling queenside and go for Black's king. But I suppose that does not fit in your Anti-Dutch repertoire.
If you really don't have a clue, play the king's fianchetto with Nf3, Nc3, Bg5. Be happy if you manage to exchange the dark-squared bishops. Then decide to play either a pawnstorm on the queen's wing with c4-c5 or to exchange on d5. After ...cxd5 invade via the c-file and after ...exd5 play the minority attack. Let Black worry about counterplay.
  

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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #2 - 05/11/09 at 11:06:01
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I also did not trust that much Cox's Nc3 in his Starting Out: d4!
As I am used to play the Catalan and the g3-Queen's Indian, I always tend to put my knight on d2 against systems involving e6 with ou without d5.
But to be sure I once tried to play Nc3 against the Stonewall on the internet and I can conclude my results are now far much better against this opening then in the past.
Don't ask my Nc3 is better, I still am not sure I really understand how to play against the Stonewall. The only thing I could say is that the knight exerts more pressure on Q-side when placed on c3 (instead of d2).
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Stonewall dutch
Reply #1 - 05/11/09 at 11:04:57
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You may want to get a hold of Avrukh's GM Repertoire 2 which will be due out in a month or two.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
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Bogojump
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Stonewall dutch
05/11/09 at 10:11:26
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I am sitting here constructing my 1.d4 repertoire .
It is a process that has been going on for a while but I have got stuck when finding something good to play against the Stonewall. I have looked through some books but I dont get "any feel" for any white set up so far and I am unsure how to "knock down" this wall of stone.

Actually I like to play against the Stonewall with the d-pawn on d3. Like in the Kramnik series and Tony Kostens Dynamic english. You simply play d3 and then bang! you play e4 just crushing the center. Unfortunately thats impossible with 1.d4. Of course there are other advantages playing 1.d4 compared to  1.Nf3 and  1.c4 thats why I now prefer 1.d4. But the Stonewall issue still remains a "problem" for me. I am used to have a pawn on d3.

What I possibly could find interesting is  Nh3-system but then black often plays the bishop back to e7 and the knight just look stupid on h3. Maybe I am wrong here. I will play the Carlsbad against the Leningrad dutch and in this case the knight will become more active putting pressure on the e6 square.
John Coxs recommendation in Starting out 1.d4 looks suspicous to me also.

Gary Lanes recommendation in Ideas behind modern chess openings could maybe be interesting ? Anyone playing this ? There are also e3 systems and more.

Is there anyone here who is playing against the Stonewall dutch with confidence and has found something good. Any 1.d4 player who is really happy facing the Stonewall ?   Grin and how do you face it ?

Help!!  Lips Sealed
  

"You must lead your opponent into a deep, dark forest, where 2 + 2 = 5 and
  where the path back out is only broad enough for one of you." (((Mikhail Tal)))
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