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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!? (Read 11777 times)
Schaakhamster
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #10 - 06/30/09 at 08:03:01
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TN wrote on 06/30/09 at 07:45:26:
Schaakhamster wrote on 06/30/09 at 07:29:42:
Perhaps there are better lines against the Danish but I have been researching the Nimzowitch defence lately and 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 e5 should be okay for black. 2. Nf3 is a lot more challenging and force black into 2... e5 because other options are inferior.


How does Black equalise against the two variations I gave at the start of this thread?


I opened a topic in the 1 e4 ... section because, well, it isn't a e4 e5 discussion http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1246348850
  
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TN
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #9 - 06/30/09 at 07:45:26
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Schaakhamster wrote on 06/30/09 at 07:29:42:
Perhaps there are better lines against the Danish but I have been researching the Nimzowitch defence lately and 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 e5 should be okay for black. 2. Nf3 is a lot more challenging and force black into 2... e5 because other options are inferior.


How does Black equalise against the two variations I gave at the start of this thread?
  
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Schaakhamster
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #8 - 06/30/09 at 07:29:42
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Perhaps there are better lines against the Danish but I have been researching the Nimzowitch defence lately and 1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 e5 should be okay for black. 2. Nf3 is a lot more challenging and force black into 2... e5 because other options are inferior.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #7 - 05/31/09 at 22:25:26
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The way I copied your post was a bit lazy - my remark was only directed against the "Göring Gambit" part. But I would like to add that I would rather prefer 3.Bc4 iso 3.Nf3 exactly because of 3...Bb4+. So the Scotch Game aficionados remain.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #6 - 05/31/09 at 18:44:55
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MNb wrote on 05/31/09 at 13:23:56:
SWJediknight wrote on 05/31/09 at 11:06:22:

If White uses 1.e4 e5 2.d4 as a move-order to get to the Scotch Game, Scotch Gambit or Goring Gambit, then reasonable is 3.Nf3 transposing to the Scotch.

Here I disagree because of the Capablanca Defence: after 3.Nf3 White cannot deviate anymore with 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Be3 (iso the very drawish 6.Nf3 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.Be2 Bxf3).

I was referring to players who would normally meet 2...exd4 with 3.Nf3 with the idea of transposing to one of the aforementioned three openings (note that the Scotch Gambit and Scotch Game do not allow the Capablanca Defence- though 3...Bb4+ is a problem)

Of course for players who use the Danish move order (such as to open up that Be3 possibillity in the ...d5 declining line) then your point is highly relevant.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #5 - 05/31/09 at 13:54:52
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TN wrote on 05/31/09 at 12:22:42:

Returning to the original question: I wouldn't recommend 2...Nc6 as an antidote to the Centre Game for two reasons.

a) 2...ed4 is clearly Black's best move and offers Black clear equality.
b) After 2...Nc6, White emerges with a slight advantage after either 3.de5 Ne5 4.Nf3 or 3.d5 Nce7 4.Nf3 (4.c4 is not bad either) Ng6 5.h4 h5 6.Bg5.


I second that. Of course, if you're comfortable with 2...Nc6, then you can use it as an Anti-Center and/or Anti-Danish weapon. However, Black is doing theoretically better in the Center and Danish than in the Nimzowitch, so objectively 2...exd4 is the best move.
  
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MNb
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #4 - 05/31/09 at 13:23:56
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SWJediknight wrote on 05/31/09 at 11:06:22:

If White uses 1.e4 e5 2.d4 as a move-order to get to the Scotch Game, Scotch Gambit or Goring Gambit, then reasonable is 3.Nf3 transposing to the Scotch.

Here I disagree because of the Capablanca Defence: after 3.Nf3 White cannot deviate anymore with 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Be3 (iso the very drawish 6.Nf3 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Bg4 8.Be2 Bxf3).
  
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TN
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #3 - 05/31/09 at 12:22:42
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Perhaps I am just being pedantic, but since this variation occurs via. 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 than it does via. 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6, wouldn't it be more accurate to place this thread under the '1.e4...' section? It would make it easier for readers to search and find this thread in the future, although personally I don't really mind which section of the Forum this thread is in. 

Returning to the original question: I wouldn't recommend 2...Nc6 as an antidote to the Centre Game for two reasons.

a) 2...ed4 is clearly Black's best move and offers Black clear equality.
b) After 2...Nc6, White emerges with a slight advantage after either 3.de5 Ne5 4.Nf3 or 3.d5 Nce7 4.Nf3 (4.c4 is not bad either) Ng6 5.h4 h5 6.Bg5.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #2 - 05/31/09 at 11:06:22
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It transposes to the Nimzowitsch Defence.  Note that White also has the calmer possibility 3.dxe5 Nxe5 4.Nf3 which should promise a slight edge after 4...Bb4+ 5.c3 or 4...Qf6 5.Nc3! (not 5.Nxe5 Qxe5 6.Bd3 d5 as analysed by Stefan Bucker).  Play in the latter line should continue 5...Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Ne7.

If White uses 1.e4 e5 2.d4 as a move-order to get to the Scotch Game, Scotch Gambit or Goring Gambit, then reasonable is 3.Nf3 transposing to the Scotch.
  
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Re: 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
Reply #1 - 05/30/09 at 11:13:10
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to correct my previous post, Miles always began with 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5, but the position reached is the same.
  
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1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6!?
05/30/09 at 11:09:20
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I see some people are into Centre Game here, but can`t black just get around it by 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6? this was a favorite move order by Tony Miles, who of course didn`t mind going into 3.dxe5 Nxe5 4.f4 Nc6 or 3.d5 Nce7 4.Nf3 Ng6.
obviously, whether this is better than playing actual Centre Game as black is another matter.
  
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