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New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch (Read 211440 times)

Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #46 - 07/06/09 at 10:08:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had a meeting with "the big head" (my coach) yesterday and i brought to his attention the line we are duscussing with brabo. I always trust his judgment and i asked him his opinion about this line with 7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3. First of all he had some thoughts about 8...Qe8 9.b3 b6 10.Rb1!? when i explained to him that the book says that the b6 ideas are not good against Rb1+b4 set-ups, but we didn't worked on this. Another thought was 9.Rb1 b5 10.b3 but again we didn't touched this. So, after 9.b3 b6 10.Ne5 Bb7 11.Bf4 he called 11...Nh5 a silly move in White can play 12.e3 and cannot be pu nished tactically. So he proposed 11...Na6 and "if this doesn't equalise then the plan with Qe8 and b6 cannot be reccomended"(Although i think that my last proposal is adequate also. The ending with the exchange for the pawn is a draw if Black plays Bd4, don't move his f6 pawn and play Rd8-Rd7). Chess is simple and the Na6 move can be punished only with a4-a5 or by exchanging the Bf4 bishop with Ng6 and play the resulting position (we checked also ideas with cxd5) with the knight badly placed on a6. But in this positions white's knight should be on f3 (when the other is on f4 or d3) so things are not simple. Example variations are 11...Na6 12.Ng6 (12.a4 Nb4 and a5 12.Rad1 Rc8 with the idea Qe7 now and c5 13.Ng6 Bxf4 14.Nxf4 Qe7! 15.Qd2 Rfd8 and black is flexible with the pawn breaks c5 or e5 or dxc4 and e5 Critical is also 12.Rac1 Rc8 13.Qb1 to satay in touch with f5 and unpin the Nce so that it can come to b5 13...c5 14.Nb5 Bb8 15.Nd3 Qe7 with no smart play by Black to gain a nice position 12.a3+b4 may be another critical plan) 12...Bxf4 13.Nxf4 Rc8! (no need for c5 or e5 yet) 14.Nd3 Qe7!, 14.Bb2 Qe7 15.a4 now when Black cannot answer with Nb4+a5 but 15...Nb4 16.a5 c5! is unclear, 14.exd5 exd5! or 14...cxd5 15.Qb2 (later we concluded that Qd2 is best) 15...Qe7 16.Rfd1 g5!? 17.Nd3 Nb4 and Nc6 with f4 ideas cannot be bad. But at the end he asked me what is the most popular reaction to 8.Nc3 and when i told him that it is 8...Ne4 but the problem is 9.Nxe4 he again was sceptical! The truth is that not a single strong player has played 9.Nxe4 so we think that 8...Ne4 is a good solution! After 9.Nxe4 dxe4! 10.Ne1?! c5! and 10.Ne5 c5 11.Be3 Qa5! 12.f4 cxd4 13.Bxd4 Bxe5 and Nc6 Black seems OK. Brabo suggested 10.Bg5 but 10...Qe8 is best according to my coach 11.Ne5 c5 12.Be3 Nc6 13.Nxc6 Qxc6 14.Qc3! (white has to play accuratelly to keep some pressure) 14...b6 but Black has easy moves to find and is close to equal here. Ideas are Ba6 or Bb7. I analysed this position for over an hour with the help of my PC and i think that Black has no problems fe 15.Rad1! Ba6! 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17.Bxc5 Qxc5 18.Rd7 Rf7 19.Rxf7 Kxf7 20.Rd1 Qe7 21.Qd4!? Rc8!? 22.b3 b5! etc.


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TalJechin God Member Offline There is no secret ingredient. Posts: 2892 Location: Malmö Joined: 08/12/04 Gender:	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #45 - 07/05/09 at 20:15:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Howdy, I just got the book yesterday so I've only glanced here and there but on first impression it feels like a good read. However, one thing that caught my attention was the coverage of the Litsitsin gambit: "1.Nf3 f5!? 2.e4?! fxe4 3.Ng5 e5! 4.d3 e3! 5.Bxe3 Nc6" How come you went for 3...e5 instead of Kindermann's 3...Nc6,? (The point of the latter is to avoid Rohde's 3...e5 4.d4!? ed4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Bc4 - but in the book after 3...e5 only 4.d3 is mentioned.) Btw, I'm not so sure about your verdict "2.e4?!" - white usually gets his pawn back in a very undutch position, so it seems like a very reasonable try - probably equivalent to the Staunton but without black being equally booked-up... And in the few GM vs GM encounters, play appears extremely messy to me. After 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 e5 4.d3 e3 5.Bxe3 Nc6 maybe 6.d4 ed4 7.Bd3!? is the way to go? Only 5 games but white scores well. So it would be nice if black has something more convincing. When looking at various games just now, Kogan-Murey, Israeli T-Ch 2000 strikes me as an interesting set-up for black: 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 Nf6 4.d3 Nc6 5.Nc3 e6 6.dxe4 Bb4 7.Bd3 0-0 8.0-0 h6 9.Nf3 d6 Anyway, if anyone is interested in discussing these lines, just start a new thread so we don't hijack the book discussion. I think the book as a whole should be judged on how it deals with explaining the Stonewall and not a rare sideline like the Litsitsin (which few books on the dutch spend much space on), so I hope this isn't seen as nitpicking.


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #44 - 07/04/09 at 05:29:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 07/03/09 at 06:53:13: I had a really nice experience yesterday at the beach where i found myself with 3 fellow team-mates analysing the position after 8.Nc3 Qe8 9.b3 b6 10.Ne5 Bb7 and causing the interest of some beautifull girls that wanted to know what we were doing! Ofcourse i explained them that this is a critical position and that we are trying to improve Black's play in a critical modern line of a solid defence and a lot of people around the world are waiting for us to give them hope for the Black side! It seems that the girls where impressed an finally they gave us their phone numbers! After this pleasant moment we went on to find the improvement! So 11.Bf4 (11.cxd5 cxd5 12.Nc4 is not a problem in this line {12.a4 Nc6 13.Nxc6 Qxc6 or 13.Nb5 Nxd4!} 12...Bb4! {12...Be7 is playable also but we found here anice idea} 13.a3 {13.Rd1 Qc8! wins and 13.Bf4 Nc6 14.Nd6 Nxd4 is a move suggested my the PC while we had analysed only 13...Qe7 which seems also fine} 13...Be7 14.Bf4 Nc6 15.Nd6 Nxd4 16.Qd3 Bxd6 17.Bxd6 Nxb3! 18.Rab1 Na5 and Black has good compensation for the exchange after Nc4 and maybe take the a3 pawn. We found this after analysing 12...Be7 first and the noticing that if 12...Bb4 13.a3 where played first, now the b3 pawn hungs!) 11...Nh5! 12.e3 maybe not best? (12.Bg5/Bd2 Nd7 13.Nd3 Nhf6 14.Bf4 was what we considered the first critical position. We analysed two ideas after 14...Bxf4 15.Nxf4. In the first one we missed a strong reply by White: 15...dxc4 16.bxc4 e5 17.dxe5 Qxe5 18.e4! and the PC likes White. The other idea is 15...Rc8 with ideas of ...e5 again and this seems that almost equalises) 12...Nbd7! (Ofcourse we didn't like 12...Qe7?! I explained that Black wants the Queen on e8 so that after cxd5 can play cxd5 and don't let a white knight on b5) The funny thing here is that engines don't evaluate highly this move because of 13.Ng6 but this has to do because of the horizon effect (they cannot evaluate correctly a position that comes after many moves down the line) but for us (humans),this was easy to see! First of all the idea of 12...Nbd7 is that after neutural like 13.Rad1 Nxf4! 14.exf4 Nxe5 15.fxe5 Be7 is good for Black. I don't know if this is fully equal but we went further with 16.Ne2 g5 17.f4 h6 18.cxd5 cxd5 and after we thought that Black stands well. This is the line we wanted to work after 12...Nxf4 but we don't have time then. That's the primary reason we found 12...Nbd7! Maybe best for White now is 13.Nxd7 Qxd7 14.Bxd6 Qxd6 but we failed to find something concrete for White and it seemed that always Black gradually equalises f.e 15.Ne2 (15.cxd5 exd5 16.a4 a5! has to be played and Black OK) 15...Nf6 16.Nf4 Rc8 17.Nd3 c5 So, let us share with you our analysis after 13.Ng6. This is fun! 13...Nxf4 14.Nxf8 Nxg2 15.Nxd7 (forced) Nxe3! 16.Nf6+ (practically forced because after 16.fxe3 Qxd7 Black is in good shape with two bishops and a pawn for the exchange and a solid pawn structure) 16...gxf6 17.fxe3! dxc4!! (if this was not possible then Black would have problems and 8.Nc3 would become the main line in the whole Stonewall! ) 18.bxc4 c5! with the nice idea that 19.d5 cxd5! and if 20.Nxd5 Bxd5 and Qxe3+ with favourable complications for Black. I thinkthat the analysis can be improved in the sidelines but in the main line Black clearly has no problems. The girls may be impressed but I am certainly not. I found different ways which jeopardize your claims. 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Qe8 9. b3, b6 10. Ne5, Bb7 11. Bf4, Nh5 12. e3, Nbd7 A) 13. Nd3, Nf4: 14. ef4: is an easy and practical method to keep a small but lasting advantage for white. B) 13. Nd7:, Qd7: 14. Bd6:, Qd6: 15. cd5:, ed5: (or the moveorder 13. cd5:, ed5: 14. Nd7:, Qd7: 15. Bd6:, Qd6: ) 16. Rfb1!, g6 (What else because on a5 follows Na4!) 17. b4! with a very strong minority attack. C) 13. Ng6, Nf4: 14. Nf8:, Ng2: 15. Nd7:, Ne3: 16. Nf6+, gf6: 17. fe3:, dc4: 18. bc4:, c5 19. d5, ed5: 20. Nd5:, Bd5: 21. cd5:, Qe3+: 22. Kg2! (This doesn't bring any favourable complications to black. No instead we go to a bad endgame for black.), Be5 23. Rd1, Qe4+ 24. Qe4:, fe4: 25. Rfe1, f5 26. Re2, Kf7 27. Rf1, Kf6 28. g4, f4 29. Re4:, Rd8 30. Rd1, b5 31. Kf3, c4 32. h4, c3 33. Re2, b4 34. Re4, a5 35. Rc4, Kg7 36. g5, Bd6 37. Re1, Bf8 38. Rc7+, Kg8 39. Rd1, a4 40. Rc6, Bd6 41. h5, Kf8 42. Re1, Kg8 43. Re4, Kf7 44. Re6, Bf8 45. Rf6+, Kg8 46. h6, a3 47. Rc7, b3 48. ab3:, Ra8 49. g6, hg6: 50. Rg6+:, Kh8 51. Rg1, Bb4 52. Rc6, Rg8 53. Rd1, Rd8 54. Kf4:, Kh7 55. Ke5, Ra8 56. Ra1, Rd8 57. Kd4, Rg8 58. Rf1, Rg4+ 59. Kd3, Rg6 60. Rg6:, Kg6: 61. Kc2, Bd6 62. Re1, a2 63. Ra1, Kh6: 64. Ra2: +- This is how Rybka was pushed of the board in tournament mode.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #43 - 07/03/09 at 06:53:13	Post Tools	Print Post
	I had a really nice experience yesterday at the beach where i found myself with 3 fellow team-mates analysing the position after 8.Nc3 Qe8 9.b3 b6 10.Ne5 Bb7 and causing the interest of some beautifull girls that wanted to know what we were doing! Ofcourse i explained them that this is a critical position and that we are trying to improve Black's play in a critical modern line of a solid defence and a lot of people around the world are waiting for us to give them hope for the Black side! It seems that the girls where impressed an finally they gave us their phone numbers! After this pleasant moment we went on to find the improvement! So 11.Bf4 (11.cxd5 cxd5 12.Nc4 is not a problem in this line {12.a4 Nc6 13.Nxc6 Qxc6 or 13.Nb5 Nxd4!} 12...Bb4! {12...Be7 is playable also but we found here anice idea} 13.a3 {13.Rd1 Qc8! wins and 13.Bf4 Nc6 14.Nd6 Nxd4 is a move suggested my the PC while we had analysed only 13...Qe7 which seems also fine} 13...Be7 14.Bf4 Nc6 15.Nd6 Nxd4 16.Qd3 Bxd6 17.Bxd6 Nxb3! 18.Rab1 Na5 and Black has good compensation for the exchange after Nc4 and maybe take the a3 pawn. We found this after analysing 12...Be7 first and the noticing that if 12...Bb4 13.a3 where played first, now the b3 pawn hungs!) 11...Nh5! 12.e3 maybe not best? (12.Bg5/Bd2 Nd7 13.Nd3 Nhf6 14.Bf4 was what we considered the first critical position. We analysed two ideas after 14...Bxf4 15.Nxf4. In the first one we missed a strong reply by White: 15...dxc4 16.bxc4 e5 17.dxe5 Qxe5 18.e4! and the PC likes White. The other idea is 15...Rc8 with ideas of ...e5 again and this seems that almost equalises) 12...Nbd7! (Ofcourse we didn't like 12...Qe7?! I explained that Black wants the Queen on e8 so that after cxd5 can play cxd5 and don't let a white knight on b5) The funny thing here is that engines don't evaluate highly this move because of 13.Ng6 but this has to do because of the horizon effect (they cannot evaluate correctly a position that comes after many moves down the line) but for us (humans),this was easy to see! First of all the idea of 12...Nbd7 is that after neutural like 13.Rad1 Nxf4! 14.exf4 Nxe5 15.fxe5 Be7 is good for Black. I don't know if this is fully equal but we went further with 16.Ne2 g5 17.f4 h6 18.cxd5 cxd5 and after we thought that Black stands well. This is the line we wanted to work after 12...Nxf4 but we don't have time then. That's the primary reason we found 12...Nbd7! Maybe best for White now is 13.Nxd7 Qxd7 14.Bxd6 Qxd6 but we failed to find something concrete for White and it seemed that always Black gradually equalises f.e 15.Ne2 (15.cxd5 exd5 16.a4 a5! has to be played and Black OK) 15...Nf6 16.Nf4 Rc8 17.Nd3 c5 So, let us share with you our analysis after 13.Ng6. This is fun! 13...Nxf4 14.Nxf8 Nxg2 15.Nxd7 (forced) Nxe3! 16.Nf6+ (practically forced because after 16.fxe3 Qxd7 Black is in good shape with two bishops and a pawn for the exchange and a solid pawn structure) 16...gxf6 17.fxe3! dxc4!! (if this was not possible then Black would have problems and 8.Nc3 would become the main line in the whole Stonewall! ) 18.bxc4 c5! with the nice idea that 19.d5 cxd5! and if 20.Nxd5 Bxd5 and Qxe3+ with favourable complications for Black. I thinkthat the analysis can be improved in the sidelines but in the main line Black clearly has no problems.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #42 - 07/02/09 at 07:21:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]Yes, i think that it would be interesting to find out if this is a draw but i think from a practical point of view it is not so important because Black is playing only for one result, the draw! [/quote] (A) [quote]A draw with black is in most games an acceptable result. [/quote] (B) I guess this tension will always exist. We can't call one point of view wrong and the other right -- all depends on the practical and the subjective situation. But if we could show that Black does in fact draw without too much difficulty, then B's perspective suddenly becomes the more 'normative' one regarding this position in that theoretical attention will shift to other options for White -- illogically from a practical viewpoint, since Black is still playing for only one result! But then the theoretical and the practical begin to collide: the more it's felt that objectively White has nothing, the more even the practical upholders of the White side will feel bound to try other paths.


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #41 - 07/02/09 at 05:54:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 07/02/09 at 02:37:04: Yes, i think that it would be interesting to find out if this is a draw but i think from a practical point of view it is not so important because Black is playing only for ine result, the draw! To come again back to the 7.Qc2+8.Nc3 issue. I noticed a game played recently with Black by our hero (and a really nice man!) Cmilyte-Agdestein, 2008 ......7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3 Qe8 was played and after 9.Rb1 b6!? like nothing happened! Black had a nice position aout of the opening mainly because White exchanged on d5 but i think that after analysing the game and playing the more critical moves for White (f.e. b4-b5) i realised that Black's position is OK even with b6 instead of b5. So, the Queen is usefull on e8 after all! I can see that she takes away from the Nc3 the b5 square, so now cxd5 can be met by cxd5 with confidence. Brabo proposed now 9.b3! and i analysed 9...b6 and i cannot understand the problem in Black's possition. As i said above the Qe8 can be usefull at present where she stands and it is not need to put her back to e7 especially now that there is no Ba3 threat. Note: for those who haven't got it yet, Brabo was very kind to offer to us a very interesting (and critically important as it seems) repertoire against the Stonewall! I'd like to thank him for this! It is always very nice when someone shares with us hours of analysis and years of experience (something i myself try to do, but to be fair not so well sometimes! ) A draw with black is in most games an acceptable result. 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Qe8 9. Rb1, b6?! (I analysed the game Cmilyte-Agdestein, 2008 because Agdestein as co-autor doesn't play his own recommended line with b5 and because Cmilyte is one of the biggest experts of the Qc2&Nc3 systems) 10. b4, Bb7 11. c5!N (Much better than cd5: played in the game), Bc7 12. b5, Ne4 13. a4, Qd7 14. Ba3, Rc8 15. Nd2+/= 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Qe8 9. b3, b6 (Strange you recommend the move. ) 10. Ne5, Bb7 11. Bf4, Nh5 12. e3, Qe7 (Sooner or later you will need to connect the rooks) 13. cd5:, cd5: 14. Nb5, Nf4: 15. ef4: +/=


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #40 - 07/02/09 at 02:37:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, i think that it would be interesting to find out if this is a draw but i think from a practical point of view it is not so important because Black is playing only for ine result, the draw! To come again back to the 7.Qc2+8.Nc3 issue. I noticed a game played recently with Black by our hero (and a really nice man!) Cmilyte-Agdestein, 2008 ......7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3 Qe8 was played and after 9.Rb1 b6!? like nothing happened! Black had a nice position aout of the opening mainly because White exchanged on d5 but i think that after analysing the game and playing the more critical moves for White (f.e. b4-b5) i realised that Black's position is OK even with b6 instead of b5. So, the Queen is usefull on e8 after all! I can see that she takes away from the Nc3 the b5 square, so now cxd5 can be met by cxd5 with confidence. Brabo proposed now 9.b3! and i analysed 9...b6 and i cannot understand the problem in Black's possition. As i said above the Qe8 can be usefull at present where she stands and it is not need to put her back to e7 especially now that there is no Ba3 threat. Note: for those who haven't got it yet, Brabo was very kind to offer to us a very interesting (and critically important as it seems) repertoire against the Stonewall! I'd like to thank him for this! It is always very nice when someone shares with us hours of analysis and years of experience (something i myself try to do, but to be fair not so well sometimes! )


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #39 - 07/02/09 at 00:00:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	[quote]I see you revised your judgement of big advantage for white after 7.., Nbd7 so we agree.[/quote] Is this comment directed at Ametanoitos or at me? I'm not sure A. [i]did[/i] revise his judgement here! -- and I'd be interested to know your judgement. It strikes me that given the limited number of pawns on the board it might be possible to work out whether White can break through in Bishop endings or not. Your latest post seems to suggest this might be of some practical as well as theoretical interest. Fun, anyway ...


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #38 - 07/01/09 at 21:55:27	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 07/01/09 at 21:11:54: So, what do you reccomend against 7.Qc2? That is a difficult question for me. I would choose between 0-0 followed up with Ne4 or 0-0 followed up with Qe8 or Nbd7 with the Bb8 path depending on my mood, opponent and the needs of the situation.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #37 - 07/01/09 at 21:32:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	No, not a chance of an anti-propaganda! I just wanted the book to be better. I have all the books written by Sverre Johnsen and i was a team-mate with Agdestein in 2003 i think in Greece and he is one of my chess-idols! I'll analyse the position and will be back! But, to my mind and my chess education 9...b6 has to be a bad move!


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #36 - 07/01/09 at 21:25:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 07/01/09 at 20:22:10: At page 49 the authors state that after 7.b3 Qe7 8.Ne5 O-O 9.Qc2 is a critical move and went on to analyse Bd7, Nbd7,a5 and at the end they consider the bad move 9...b6? When i first saw this position the Catalan and semi-slav experiences i have suggested immediately the move 9...c5. I thought that this move should not be good after all in a stonewall structure but when i turned on Rybka 3 this was the first move it suggested!!! So i analysed 9...c5! 10.e3 (10.cxd5 exd5 [10...Nxd5 cannot be bad also] 11.Bg5 cxd4 12.Bxd5+ Be6 13.Bxf6 Qxf6 14.Qc4 Bxe5 15.Bxe6+ Kh8 is clearly better for Black because of the move d3 next!) 10...cxd4 11.exd4 Nc6 12.Bb2 and thought that white has to be a bit better although the position seems playable. But analysing with Rybka here showed me that Black is absolutely equal! 12...Bd7 with Rc8 next and if 13.Re1 Bb4 and Black shows all the bad things about the "move order finesse" of white with 9.Qc2?! So, i think that Black hasn't got any problems here also! I think this is another improvement over the book's analysis. I've the feeling your comments are becoming more an anti-propaganda against the book for whatever reason than an objective analysis. First 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. b3, Qe7 8. Ne5, 0-0 9. Qc2, c5 is a very non standard move in the stonewall. I've checked my database and I only found 3 games played with this move by lower rated amateurs. The bad move b6 as you call it, has at contrary been played by Sherbakov, Gleizerov, Varga, Ulibin and Jakovenko which are the most known names. On top the so called position in which black shows all the bad things about the finess is in reality better for white as Rybka 3 indicates if you let her calculate a bit longer, see below: 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. b3, Qe7 8. Ne5, 0-0 9. Qc2, c5 10. e3, cd4: 11. ed4:, Nc6 12. Bb2, Bd7 13. Re1, Bb4 14. Nc3, dc4: 15. bc4: (15. Bc6: looks also good), Nd4: 16. Qd3, Bc5 17. Nd5 +/-


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #35 - 07/01/09 at 21:11:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	So, what do you reccomend against 7.Qc2? And what do you think about 7.b3 Qe7 8.Ne5 O-O 9.Qc2 c5!N i analysed above?


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brabo God Member Offline Welcome chessfriend Posts: 1073 Joined: 02/02/07	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #34 - 07/01/09 at 20:27:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 07/01/09 at 09:36:28: No, no! Black is worse in this position. The most likely senario is to exchange everything (except maybe for a pair of knights) and play with the bad bishop against the good one. I'd say that after 7...Nbd7 8.cxd5 White is at least slightly better. @ brabo: After 7...O-O 8.Nc3 Ne4 9.Nxe4 dxe4 10.Bg5 why not 10...Qe8!? or 9...fxe4 10.Bg5 Qe8. It is tricky to analyse these positions and look only to the engines evaluations because they change their minds very easily with a little "human" help! I know this from experience. But to be fair i don't like 8...Ne4. At the tournament in Kavala 2008 i played with Black against a strong opponent who played egainst me 7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3. When i saw this move i thought it looked bad! It is not a typical stonewall move but this shows clearly the lack of experience i had then. I used to play the Classical Dutch but i considered it not a good choice against strong opponents, so i used to play the stonewall against them (a bad thought process!). So, i played without to much thought 8...Qe7 and when white played 9.Rb1 i was amazed again! I had no idea of this plan, so i once again thought that it was wrong! I played 9...b6 with confidence. "I am playing all the typical moves and my opponent is playing bizzare ones!". To be fair with myself i had calculated some lines. I saw White wants to play b4 but he cannot do it now because i control the b4 square, so i calculated 10.a3 when i wanted to play 10...a5 but then i saw 11.Na4! After a while i realised that 10.a3 Ba6 was OK so, i played 9...b6 just to be hit by another surprize: 10.Bg5!. Suddenly it all makes sense for white now. After something like 10...h6 11.Bxf6 Qxf6 now 12.b4 is possible and if 11...Rxf6 my Bc8 is hanging so White can take twice on d5. My opponent at this point had a slightly more pleasant position and he outplayed me and won the game. When i analysed this game at my home with the help of Shipkov's cd i saw that in this position after 8.Nc3 Bd7! is good. Now there is not the "Euwe plan" with Nd3-Ne5 when the Bh5 is not good, so this move makes sence! After 9.Rb1?! b5 has to be good now or better is 9...Be8 10.b4 f4! So, what is wrong with 8...Bd7? Or what is wrong with 8...Qe8? as it tis analysed in game 17 page 62? I don;t think that 8.Nc3 is a problem as you state in your reply. I see you revised your judgement of big advantage for white after 7.., Nbd7 so we agree. Concerning your other doubts, see below: 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Ne4 9. Ne4:, de4: 10. Bg5, Qe8 11. Ne5, Nbd7 12. Qc3, Bc7 13. Bf4, Ne5: 14. Be5:, Qe7 15. c5 +/= 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Ne4 9. Ne4:, fe4: 10. Ne1!(Now this has more force because black doesn't have c5), Na6 11. Be3,b6 12. Rd1, Qe8 13. f3, Nb4 14. Qb1, dc4: 15. fe4: +/= Nothing forced but the line clearly shows that white has chances. 8...,Ne4 is the most often played in practice and is/has been the choice of Nikolic, Glek, Portisch, Moskalenko, Goldin, Gleizerov, Karlsson, Nielsen, Jussupov, Ulibin, Vaisser which are only the most known names. 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Qe7!? 9. Bg5! (Better than 9. Rb1, Nbd7! and no clear path to advantage for white), h6 (Nbd7 10. cd5: isn't good) 10. Bd2, Ne4 (Black wanted to avoid this move but 10.., Nbd7 11. cd5:, ed5: 12. Nh4 is again no option.) 11. Be3, Rd8 12. Rfd1, Nd7 13. Rac1 +/= I doubt black can find here good counterplay. 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!,Bd7!? 9.Qb3!? (9.Rb1, Be8 10.Ng5, Bf7 11. c5, Be7 12. Na4, Qc8 13. Nf7:, Rf7: 14. b4, Nbd7 15. Be3 +/= also to be considered is 9.b3 with the idea of Nc3-Na4-Nb2-Nd3 and we get the position black fears against Bh5 plans) , Qb6 10. Ne5, Be8 11. Bf4, Be7 12. c5, Qb3: 13. ab3:, Nh5 14. Be3, Nd7 15. b4+/= White is everytime in the driving seat. 1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0!? 8. Nc3!, Qe8 9. b3! Black has in most lines nothing better than adjusting the queen to e7.


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #33 - 07/01/09 at 20:22:10	Post Tools	Print Post
	At page 49 the authors state that after 7.b3 Qe7 8.Ne5 O-O 9.Qc2 is a critical move and went on to analyse Bd7, Nbd7,a5 and at the end they consider the bad move 9...b6? When i first saw this position the Catalan and semi-slav experiences i have suggested immediately the move 9...c5. I thought that this move should not be good after all in a stonewall structure but when i turned on Rybka 3 this was the first move it suggested!!! So i analysed 9...c5! 10.e3 (10.cxd5 exd5 [10...Nxd5 cannot be bad also] 11.Bg5 cxd4 12.Bxd5+ Be6 13.Bxf6 Qxf6 14.Qc4 Bxe5 15.Bxe6+ Kh8 is clearly better for Black because of the move d3 next!) 10...cxd4 11.exd4 Nc6 12.Bb2 and thought that white has to be a bit better although the position seems playable. But analysing with Rybka here showed me that Black is absolutely equal! 12...Bd7 with Rc8 next and if 13.Re1 Bb4 and Black shows all the bad things about the "move order finesse" of white with 9.Qc2?! So, i think that Black hasn't got any problems here also! I think this is another improvement over the book's analysis.


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Michael Ayton God Member Offline ‘You’re never alone with a doppelgänger.’ Posts: 1976 Location: durham Joined: 04/19/03 Gender:	Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch Reply #32 - 07/01/09 at 17:58:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi Ametanoitos, Thanks. I'd imagined Black could reroute his QB in a Bishop ending so it wouldn't be that bad, but I confess I only looked at this highly superficially so I'm sure you're right!


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