Ametanoitos wrote on 06/26/09 at 11:55:41:


tut tut, discussing games with team-mates, we´ll have to dock you a few points for that

Ametanoitos wrote on 07/15/09 at 13:22:02:

I think you are running too fast for me. First I want to say that we shouldn't exaggerate the value of these analysis. I try to put it in the right perspective:
- Nc3 combined with Qc2 I've not encountered yet in an official game during 13 years of practice against FMs, IMs and GMs.
- Black has next to Ne4 at least also Qe8 and Nbd7 as interesting
- 9. Ne4: hasn't been tested in practice, neither has been mentioned in the book so unless people have been reading this forum. Chances are very slim it will pop up in a real game.
- Black has next to 10.., Qe8 also 10.., Be7 which leads at my opinion to a slightly inferior game but likely defendable.
- White has next to 11. Ne5 also the interesting 11. Nd2 which is maybe not really better but good enough to create new high complications.
- Next to 12.., Be5:, black has other interesting ideas like 12.., Nc6

In the end I believe the chances are practically 0% that a game will be played with this critical line unless both players read this forum.

1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0 8. Nc3, Ne4 9. Ne4:, de4: 10. Bg5, Qe8 11. Ne5, c5 12. Be3, Be5: 13. de5:, b6 14. Qc3, Nc6 15. Rad1, Bb7 16. a3, Rd8 17. f3, ef3: 18. Bf3:, Rf7 19. Rd6 (I agree with the engines. 19. b4 quickly fizzles out in equalty), Rd6: 20. ed6:, Qd7 21. Bf4 I believe white still has chances. The d-pawn can indeed do no direct damage but it will tie blacks pieces. White needs of course a second front likely with b4 (via pawnsacrifice or not).

Quote:



I think i discovered a nice way out.

14.f3 exf3 15.Bxf3 Nc6 16.Qc3 Bb7 17.Rd1 Qc8 (Stefan Buecker) and 17.a3 Rd8! (P.Kanellopoulos, a local club player) with the idea 18.b4?! Nd4! So 18.Rad1 is practically forced so Black cannot put Nd4 and now....We will see later!

14.Qc3 Nc6 15.Rad1 Bb7 16.a3 is the position we agree with Brabo after so many days of analysis that is critical.
16...Rd8! 17.f3! is the critical move now that Buecker's Qc8 resourse is not available anymore (17.b4 Qe7 is OK for Black according to Brabo analysis with White's Rooks placed on a1 and d1 which seems even better for White) 17...exf3 18.Bxf3 we have transposed to the above variation and now comes my idea:

18...Rf7! Of course after 19.Rxd8 Qxd8 20.b4 Nd4 Black is fine as Kanellopoulos' variation above.
So critical is 19.Rd6 Rxd6 20.exd6 Qd7 which is great for Black even though the engines like White.I have analysed the position for a long time and Black has no problems at all because the d6 pawn cannot do any damage. A plan is Rf8-Re8 and Nd8-Nf7.

I concider main line to be 19.b4 when my idea was 19...cxd4 20.axb4 Rfd7 21.Rxd7 Qxd7 and Black has a wonderfull game with lots of potential!
The first variation i looked at was 22.Bg5 when 22...Nd4! is strong 23.Bxd8 Bxf3 24.Kf2 Bxe2 is a bit better for Black as is 23.Kf2 Nxf3 24.exf3 Rc8.
Also 22...Qd4+ and 22...Rb8 are fine according to Rybka.

Another beautifull resourse is after 22.Ra1 Ne7!? 23.Rxa7 Qd1+ 24.Kf2 Bxf3 25.exf3 Qh1! when 26.Rxe7? Rd1 is almost lost for White!

So, i think that after 18...Rf7 Black has equality and so 12...Bxe5 is the way for Black in this critical variation. I'd like to thank Brabo because if he wasn't him i would never get involved in this high level analysis. And once again this is the beauty of this forum which advances the chess theory beyong the known paths.

I agree, but the problem as i see it is that when White sees that Black has played Rd8 (and now mr Buecker's Qc8 is not available any more) he can throw f3!

So 15.Rad1 (to keep flexibility with the f3 ideas) Bb7 16.a3 Rd8 17.f3 and after 17...exf3 18.Bxf3 Qe7 19.b4 we have transposed to a position you said some time ago that White has pressure.

To close the issue (if it can be considered closed ofcourse!) about the 8...Ne4 9.Nxe4 variation we have to work out some little details of the move orders. 9. Ne4:, de4: 10. Bg5, Qe8 11. Ne5, c5 12. Be3, Be5: 13. de5:, b6 

The first is the flexibility about f3 i mentioned 14. Qc3, Nc6 15.a3 Bb7 (if 15...Qe7 white now can play f3 because there is no Qc8 idea) 16.b4 Qb8! 17.f4 exf3 18.Bxf3 Rf7 with equality and a transposition to a position i had concidered in another post of mine. If 15.Rad1 Bb7 16.f3 exf3 17.exf3 Qc8! or 16.Rd6 Rd8! are both equal but it remains 16.a3! and it is to be seen if Brabo will change his mind after 16...Rd8 17.f3! exf3 18.Bxf3 Qe7 19.b4. To be fair he didn't claim an advantage here for White, he said that White has pressure which is true.

The second deatail is the one i talked about in my last post: 14. f3, ef3: 15. Bf3:, Nc6 16. Qc3, Bb7 17.a3

Quote:


if i can answer to myself   i think that maybe the most precise is 17...Qe7 18.b4 Rfd8 which is Rybka's first choice.

brabo wrote on 07/13/09 at 20:58:46:


thanks for your input. I liked Sverre Johnsen book on the Ruy and he seems to be able to find interesting co-authors. I should get it tomorrow but I got a 16 month old hellraiser running around so heaven knows when I will have some time to take a good look at it.

brabo wrote on 07/13/09 at 17:19:39:


Impressive memory. 

Anyway how do yhou rate book? Advanced or suitable for relative novices in the stonewall?

Funely enough I discovered that Brabo is a member of my ex-club although I don't think he'll remember me.

He is indeed a 2300+ player with the Stonewall Dutch as main weapon against d4 although I once heard him say that with hindsight he might would have picked something else as it is a difficult opening to play (or something like that, I don't remember his exact words).

Anyway I ordered the book. I hope that some decent solutions to the anti-dutch lines are offered.

Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/11/09 at 21:25:28:


1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0 8. Nc3, Ne4 9. Ne4:, de4: 10. Bg5, Qe8 11. Ne5, c5 12. Be3, Be5: 13. de5:, b6 14. f3, ef3: 15. Bf3:, Nc6 16. Qc3, Bb7 17. Rad1, Qc8! This is indeed the solution. The move wins an important tempo compared with the earlier analysed Qe7, Rc8 and Rd8.

1. d4, f5 2.g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Qc2, 0-0 8. Nc3, Ne4 9. Ne4:, de4: 10. Bg5, Qe8 11. Nd2, e5!? (I fully agree with your evaluation after Qh5. No clear advantage but whites position looks attractive. E5 is the logical alternative. Less materialistic and taking full advantage of not playing Ne5.) 12. Nb3!? (or c5!? or Qb3!? or Rad1!? or de5:!?) black on his turn has also a bunch of possibilities. It is clear the position after e5 is extremely complex. I feel in general whites position is easier to play but it is too early to claim an advantage without very extensive analysis.