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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch (Read 183550 times)
Kramnikaze
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #136 - 10/16/09 at 00:22:29
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First of all, let me say: fantastic book ! After every lesson a sum-up and some exercise is really great.
And you really get the feeling for the Stonewall.

But i have a question about a move-order:

A) You have the Fianchetto lines. You will know where to place the pieces( ofcourse it's the Stonewall set-up)

B) Lesson 8 is about the non-Fianchetto lines.
About the move order: 1.d4 e6 2. c4 f5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Bb4!
The book says that results in this line are great for black, a kind of Nimzo-position with Nf3 and f5 included.
The book goes further with 5. Qb3, 5. Bd2 and 5. Bg5


But right here i have a question about: 5.g3!?
With this move-order we are back in Fianchetto lines, but where black played Bb4 and not the Stone-wall set-up.
There is no mention of 5.g3( maybe because it's outside the scope of the book?) but there are some games played in this line.
The funny thing is, f.e. 2 games played by Agdestein:
Ivanchuk- Agdestein 1-0 1993 and Ivanchuk-Agdestein 1-0 1993 rapid.

I really would like to know what the safest way is of playing, and where to focus on in this line. Has this line a name ?
Many thanks!
  
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tafl
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #135 - 10/10/09 at 16:03:31
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Of course, especially since it was just an example line not a "suggestion". (FYI e.g. = for example). What you needed to provide readers with was a guide to understanding the position. At the board it's not allowed to ask Rybka's opinion, and hard to memorise it beforehand...


Memorizing a line after 4.e3 c6 seems a waste of time. There are indeed a few examples of alternatives to 5.Bxf6 and 5.Bd3 but none seem very critical.

Understanding seems a better approach to this fairly quiet line. But is there really any specific strategic understanding needed in this position? It seems to be all rather general (activity, centralization, flexibility etc.). I believe common sense would take you a long way in a tournament game.

I cannot guarantee that I would have found 5...Ne4 under tournament conditions. But although it's Rybka's preference, I don't find it a typical computer move. It's not particularly hard to calculate, and looks quite natural to my (very) human eye. Black admittedly moves a piece twice before completing development but he is attacking a bishop on g5 which is a theme that occurs in a lot of queen-pawn openings.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #134 - 10/10/09 at 09:21:53
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tafl wrote on 10/10/09 at 08:27:30:
There is a reply at Sverre's Chess Corner (http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/) now.


Quote:
Foreseeing that a reader would be curious about the untested 5.Qf3 and related lines would have been quite difficult.


Grin Of course, especially since it was just an example line not a "suggestion". (FYI e.g. = for example). What you needed to provide readers with was a guide to understanding the position. At the board it's not allowed to ask Rybka's opinion, and hard to memorise it beforehand...

Anyway, if you actually played 1...f5 consistently you would know that 4.Bxf6 is not obligatory in practice - especially when you're playing someone who would be happy to draw.

So 4.e3 is one cunning move, especially if black is a Stonewaller, who might be tempted to use a Stonewall set-up (which is of course inferior as Bf1 can still go to d3.) Actually, in speed chess a 2300 player recently played 4.g3 against me - perhaps also hoping for a black e6+c6 I dunno..

4.f3 is another, highly dangerous Staunton-style move which definitely should have been mentioned even though it's rarely played. Here's just one example of how quickly things can go wrong for black over the board:

Thorhallsson-Bern, Arnheim 1987
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 d5 3. f3 Nf6 4. Bg5 c5 5. e3 e6 6. Qd2 Nc6 7. O-O-O cxd4 8.exd4 Bb4 9. a3 Ba5 10. g4 O-O 11. gxf5 exf5 12. Nh3 Be6 13. Nf4 Qd6 14. Rg1 Ne7 15. Qe3 Bd7 16. Qe5 Bc7 17. Bxf6 Rxf6 18. Ncxd5 Nxd5 19. Nxd5 1-0

Anyway, on closer study I abandoned the recommended c6, Na6 plan - as after a Bxa6 bxa6 the practical winning chances are with white imo. Theoretically it's probably even, but to me it feels like black will need a computer's patience not to self-destruct in the search for counter-play.

Still, knowing the idea Ne6-g5-e4 is useful as it can show up in other lines, e.g. Nc6-d8-e6/f7-g5
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #133 - 10/10/09 at 08:27:30
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TalJechin wrote on 07/11/09 at 10:20:26:
I like the books' recommendation vs 2.Nc3, i.e 2...Nf6 3.Bg5 d5 4.Bxf6 exf6 5.e3 c6!? with idea of Na6-c7-e6-g5-e4 - not that there's anything wrong with Kindermann's recommendation of 5...Be6, Qd7, Nc6 etc but it's nice with some variety. [...]

But how do you reach the book's set-up with ...c6, ...Na6 after 4.e3 and white delaying Bd3 (so it can take Na6 in one go) with moves like h4/h3/Qf3/Nh3-f4 etc? Is this 4.e3-approach covered somewhere in the book? (I can't find it, but I might have missed some "Exercise" or "Theory section" somewhere...)

After e.g: 4.e3 c6 5.Qf3 Qb6 6.0-0-0 white seems to benefit from not having 'developed' Bf8 with Bxf6 exf6, as b2 is conveniently defended.


There is a reply at Sverre's Chess Corner (http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/) now.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #132 - 09/22/09 at 09:44:16
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Regarding 1.b3, there are some general remarks about the Stonewall against White's minor set-ups. Of specific variations there is only a very brief warning regarding the trappy 1.b3 e6 2.Bb2 f5 3.e4!?.

There is a game starting 1.Nf3 e6 2.b3 and some introductory remarks. However, in that game White plays a quick g3 and at that point a game fragment is offered giving Black comfortable play against a set-up with e3 instead.

Presumably enough for Black to reach a playable middlegame but theoretically quite light.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #131 - 09/22/09 at 08:49:36
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Sorry for this interruption of your interesting discussion,
just one short question to all owners of that book:

Does this book contain any coverage/analysis/comments
about the stonewall (respectively dutch) against 1b3 ?
Or against "queen´s indian attack" after 1c4/1Nf3 ?

Thanks in advance for any answer,

tracke  Smiley
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #130 - 08/31/09 at 21:05:32
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/30/09 at 08:21:37:
Yes, the Ne1 idea seems to discourage the b6 based on a tactical idea and 10.Rd1 first is the accurate move order but at the end of the line you give i am not so sure if Black is really worse after 14...Ba6 15.Nxd6 Nxd6. The most likely senario is an ending with Qeen+2 knights Vs Queen+2 bishops (after Bxd3 eventually and an exchange of the rooks on the c file). I have worked this with Rybka but she always preffers White but i have the feeling that when we go deep in the ending that Black is safe and if i can arrange better my position i will come on top. You see, this Bg2 is locked by the Stonewall! Over the board i think that it is a good position but theoritically i am not so sure. I feel that i don't have the chess level to understand this kind of imbalance yet.

The white bishop on c1 is a monster due to the black holes. Black maybe shouldn't lose but if somebody is better then it must be white so therefore +/=. I believe that the Nc3/Qc2 is an underestimated system in which black doesn't have an easy way to full equalty.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #129 - 08/31/09 at 20:45:24
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/29/09 at 14:20:28:
If i could add something to all this i would say that 8...a6!? is another reasonable move with the idea of b5 and the critical 9.c5 Bc7 10.Bf4 Bxf4 11.gxf4 maybe is not so frightening because the plan with a4+b4 hits upon b6! and a5 (for example immediately after b4) Sorry for not going into details here but i have little time prepering a tournament for caoch who did something to help our discussion here but he is not here with us giving his trusted oponion anymore....Sad (if you haven't read it by me he tragicaly pasted away in the first round of Acropolis open in Greece at the 11th of August while playing an Israeli IM and just before he played the move that it would force the resignation from his oponnent....)


I assume you mean 1. d4, f5 2. g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Nc3, 0-0 8. Qc2, a6 (I've analysed the move months ago in combination with 7..., Nbd7 which can lead to an eventual transposition) 9. c5!? (Certainly the most principled move. It immediately puts the finger on the wound b6 but there is an interesting alternative in 9. Be3 because after 9.., b5 [the idea] white can follow up with 10. c5, Bc7 11. b4, a5!? 12. ba5:, Ba5: 13. a4! +/=) , Bc7 10. Bf4, Bf4: 11. gf4: and we get a position very similar as in chapter 4 (7.Bf4) in the book with these important nuances that black doesn't possess in the mainline over the critical dc4:, b6 nor Qb6 ideas anymore. I therefore estimate whites chances higher than the normal 7.Bf4 keypositions.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #128 - 08/30/09 at 08:21:37
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Yes, the Ne1 idea seems to discourage the b6 based on a tactical idea and 10.Rd1 first is the accurate move order but at the end of the line you give i am not so sure if Black is really worse after 14...Ba6 15.Nxd6 Nxd6. The most likely senario is an ending with Qeen+2 knights Vs Queen+2 bishops (after Bxd3 eventually and an exchange of the rooks on the c file). I have worked this with Rybka but she always preffers White but i have the feeling that when we go deep in the ending that Black is safe and if i can arrange better my position i will come on top. You see, this Bg2 is locked by the Stonewall! Over the board i think that it is a good position but theoritically i am not so sure. I feel that i don't have the chess level to understand this kind of imbalance yet.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #127 - 08/29/09 at 19:37:15
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Ametanoitos wrote on 08/29/09 at 16:00:27:
This game raised some ideas. There is the Qc2+b3+Nc3 setup which is reccomended by brabo in the line 7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3 Qe8!? 9.b3! and now i thought "what if Black tries to play the moves Ponomariov played?", he would be a tempo down then but this doesn't seem to be a problem, so 9...Nbd7! (White cannot postpone b3 so to play Ne5 because after 9.Ne5 Nbd7! and if 10.Nd3? dxc4 11.Nf4 e5 is horrible for him) and White cannot play Ne5 and he seems not to be able to avoid a semario similar to Gligoric-Ponomariov f.e 10.Bb2 (10.cxd5 exd5! 11.Qxf5  Ne4 and 10.Bg5?! Ne4 are fine) now White has protected his knight so he may want to take on d5 now and play Nb5 if Black takes with the c pawn but 10...Qe7! now the Rb1+b4 ideas are not in the air so the Queen loses a tempo but the knight on c3 is bad so Black can do that. Now 11.cxd5 exd5 12.Qxf5 Ne4 13.Qh5 Nf6 14.Qh4 Nxc3 and Qxe2 is nice and 11.Rfc1 b6 is OK also for Black. I tried to correct the knight placement with 10.Na4 (instead of Bb2) but this is very slow 10...Ne4 11.Nb2 b6 and again Black will reach a known balanced position soo when he plays Qe7.


So, 8...Qe8 is now my choice! (Do you think that this debate will have a comeback?  Wink )

1. d4, f5 2. g3, Nf6 3. Bg2, e6 4. Nf3, d5 5. 0-0, Bd6 6. c4, c6 7. Nc3, 0-0 8. Qc2, Qe8 9. b3, Nbd7 (Instead of b6 of which analysis already were published on this forum.) 10. Rd1 (My analysis of months ago tell me this is the critical move), Ne4 11. Ne1, Qe7 12. Nd3, b6 13. cd5:, cd5: 14. Nb5 +/=
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #126 - 08/29/09 at 16:00:27
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OMG! I almost forgot it! First of all

brabo wrote on 08/18/09 at 20:07:53:
tafl wrote on 08/17/09 at 07:32:21:
There are some comments on this discussion (in particular Ametanoitos' review) at http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/.


1. d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. 0-0 Bd6 6. c4 c6 7. Qc2, 0-0 8. Ne5 (Coxs recommendation) , c5 N is an amazing novelty from Rybka. Even no amateurgames are played with the move but I agree with your verdict that black seems to equalise instantly.


i want to remind you that i proposed in reply #33 a similar action in another line of the book but in that case the c5 move was weaker but imo playable.

Second i want to share with you another idea i had in the critical Qc2+Nc3 variation. About a month ago i was giving a lecture in a chess camp and i analysed the game Gligoric-Ponomariov, Cannes 1998 which i first saw in Davies DVD about the Stonewall and imo it should be given in Sverre's book also. I use frequently this game in my lectures because there as some superb attacking lines and nice variations. It is analysed in the Chessbase megabase if you are interested. The game went 1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 d5 5.Nf3 c6 6.O-O Bd6 7.b3 Qe7 8.Bb2 b6 9.Nc3?! Nbd7! a novelty at the time! The masters used to play 9...O-O 10.Ne5 Bb7 which is also equal because the Nc3 is badly placed. 10.Qc2 Ba6! and Ponomariov won in style at the end.

This game raised some ideas. There is the Qc2+b3+Nc3 setup which is reccomended by brabo in the line 7.Qc2 O-O 8.Nc3 Qe8!? 9.b3! and now i thought "what if Black tries to play the moves Ponomariov played?", he would be a tempo down then but this doesn't seem to be a problem, so 9...Nbd7! (White cannot postpone b3 so to play Ne5 because after 9.Ne5 Nbd7! and if 10.Nd3? dxc4 11.Nf4 e5 is horrible for him) and White cannot play Ne5 and he seems not to be able to avoid a semario similar to Gligoric-Ponomariov f.e 10.Bb2 (10.cxd5 exd5! 11.Qxf5  Ne4 and 10.Bg5?! Ne4 are fine) now White has protected his knight so he may want to take on d5 now and play Nb5 if Black takes with the c pawn but 10...Qe7! now the Rb1+b4 ideas are not in the air so the Queen loses a tempo but the knight on c3 is bad so Black can do that. Now 11.cxd5 exd5 12.Qxf5 Ne4 13.Qh5 Nf6 14.Qh4 Nxc3 and Qxe2 is nice and 11.Rfc1 b6 is OK also for Black. I tried to correct the knight placement with 10.Na4 (instead of Bb2) but this is very slow 10...Ne4 11.Nb2 b6 and again Black will reach a known balanced position soo when he plays Qe7.


So, 8...Qe8 is now my choice! (Do you think that this debate will have a comeback?  Wink )
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #125 - 08/29/09 at 14:20:28
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Schaakhamster wrote on 08/17/09 at 11:12:23:
tafl wrote on 08/17/09 at 07:32:21:
There are some comments on this discussion (in particular Ametanoitos' review) at http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/.


A bit spiteful, isn't it?


No, not a problem from me about this. I respect his opinion ofcourse (that's why i have all his books and i will buy the future ones!). I would like to see a comment about mine and brabo debate about the Nc3+Qc2 issue. If i could add something to all this i would say that 8...a6!? is another reasonable move with the idea of b5 and the critical 9.c5 Bc7 10.Bf4 Bxf4 11.gxf4 maybe is not so frightening because the plan with a4+b4 hits upon b6! and a5 (for example immediately after b4) Sorry for not going into details here but i have little time prepering a tournament for caoch who did something to help our discussion here but he is not here with us giving his trusted oponion anymore....Sad (if you haven't read it by me he tragicaly pasted away in the first round of Acropolis open in Greece at the 11th of August while playing an Israeli IM and just before he played the move that it would force the resignation from his oponnent....)
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #124 - 08/28/09 at 09:53:15
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There is a comment on the line 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.d5 at http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/.
  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #123 - 08/23/09 at 15:56:15
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I was waiting for this book with real interest, although I usually play the Leningrad, the Stonewall could be a useful alternative. When I received it, I was a bit dissapointed. I don't want to say that it is a bad book but, sure, it could have been much better I.M.H.O.

Reasons? Well, firstly I find the structure of the book with "lessons", questions, etc. a bit pretentious and naive in places, also resulting in a dispersion (and omissions) of the relevant theory of the chapter.

About the content, apart from the admitted holes by the author in his blog, I will mention that in the non g3 systems they gave lines that ends in a slight edge for white, maybe for persistence in the Stonewall when in several lines could be wiser to employ other systems by black. If the book is intended as a complete repertoire for black in the Dutch, with the Stonewall against the best system for white, g3, it's nonsense not to offer the best possibilities when white play anything else.

Worse is the coverage of several Anti-Dutch systems, that I find insufficient, a bit lazy, f.e. in the 1d4 f5 2Nc3 Nf6 3Bg5 d5, no mention is made of 4f3 (with ideas of Qd2, e4, O-O-O, without a bishop exchange) or 4e3, two moves that I think the black player must know.
Also, in the Staunton the analysis of the current trend ...4Bg5 Nc6 5d5 Ne5 6Qe2 is too brief (maybe they have no access to NIC Yearbook 89).

In the last "lesson", in the Lisitsyn Gambit after 1Nf3 f5 2e4 fe 3Ng5 e5! (their mark) no mention of Rohde's 4d4!?, which is complicated for black. Safe is the "alternative" move order (original of Kindermann) they suggest themselves 3...Nc6 4d3 e3!.
At the very end of the book, in the "joke" of Lasker-Bauer, they fail to analyse the best move for white after 1Nf3 f5 2d3 Nc6 3d4 e6, 4d5, already discussed in this forum!

All in all, I insist in that it's only my opinion (debatable, of course) and in spite of all this, I consider the book an honest effort and I recommend it without hesitation.
« Last Edit: 08/23/09 at 17:36:17 by Leningrad Dragon »  
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Re: New book - Win with the Stonewall Dutch
Reply #122 - 08/18/09 at 20:07:53
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tafl wrote on 08/17/09 at 07:32:21:
There are some comments on this discussion (in particular Ametanoitos' review) at http://sverreschesscorner.blogspot.com/.


1. d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. 0-0 Bd6 6. c4 c6 7. Qc2, 0-0 8. Ne5 (Coxs recommendation) , c5 N is an amazing novelty from Rybka. Even no amateurgames are played with the move but I agree with your verdict that black seems to equalise instantly.

1. d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3. Bg2 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. 0-0 Bd6 6. c4 c6 7. Qc2, Nbd7 8. cd5:, cd5: 9. Nc3, a6 10. Bf4 (As I mentioned in my post of 26/06/2009 I still believe 10. Bg5 is slightly stronger.), Bf4: 11. gf4:, b5 is maybe a little bit stronger than 0-0 but one must admit that blacks position is little fun to play with the black bishop on c8.
  
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