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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) black reprtoire (Read 16561 times)
MNb
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #21 - 07/04/09 at 13:41:29
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/04/09 at 12:22:26:
Karpov's NID) throughout their career even with additions to the repertoire.


Thank you for bringing up Karpov, as he perfectly illustrates my point. You are too kind.  Tongue
Karpov changed at least three times his repertoire as White: in the early 70's from 1.d4 to 1.e4, back to 1.d4 after losing the 2nd match against Kasparov and finally in the 90's to 1.c4. I am not counting his experiments in the Open Sicilians.
Against 1.e4 Karpov has played the Caro-Kann, the Closed Ruy Lopez and the Petrov.
Until that lost WCh-match Karpov had one of the broadest repertoires among GM's, possibly only surpassed by Timman.

Timman was one of the two, three best players in the world for quite a few years. Piket not Van Wely got that far. That might very well have to do with the fact that they had much narrower repertoires. Both invariably played 1.d4 as White. Van Wely stuck too long with the Najdorf; his results improved temporarily after switching to the Sveshnikov.

You can give any amount of examples; I will give as many counterexamples. The only logical conclusion is that both approaches are of equal value. It's just a matter of character and temperament.
To remain on the safe side I repeat that it is a bad idea to change openings all the time without delving into them. When I change openings after the usual 6 years at least 50% of my repertoire survives. The advantage of this is also clear: more flexibility and the skill to use ideas from other openings in the current repertoire. I have known a few players faithful to their openings and it seems to me that their middle game play becomes stereotypal and sometimes even highly predictable.

Paddy wrote on 07/04/09 at 10:12:15:
Why is it so difficult for forum members to spell "repertoire" correctly?

Because it's a French word. It would not surprise me if especially native English speakers tend to spell it wrongly.
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #20 - 07/04/09 at 12:51:53
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/04/09 at 12:22:26:
MNb wrote on 07/04/09 at 06:24:50:

BPaulsen wrote on 07/03/09 at 13:49:46:

A few players come to mind as people that's repetoire didn't substantially change throughout their career, but had significant success.


And a few others come to mind as players who changed repertoires repeatedly, also with significant success. Amongst them there are several WCh's. So this is not a strong argument either.


Even then their primary weapons often don't change (ie: Kramnik's Petroff, Kasparov's/Fischer's Najdorf, Anand's Semi-Slav, Karpov's NID) throughout their career even with additions to the repertoire. Why? Simple - the longer you've been playing something the better you understand it.

Not really. Most of them prepared specific openings for their matches. Anand switched to 1.d4 for his match against Kramnik. Karpov relied heavily on the QGD in his wch days, only later he switched to a Nimzo/QID repertoire. Fischer also switched openings constantly when it mattered, eg he played Alekhines and Pircs against Spassky. Kasparov indeed changed little as black, but he did it a lot as white.
  

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BPaulsen
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #19 - 07/04/09 at 12:22:26
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MNb wrote on 07/04/09 at 06:24:50:

BPaulsen wrote on 07/03/09 at 13:49:46:

A few players come to mind as people that's repetoire didn't substantially change throughout their career, but had significant success.


And a few others come to mind as players who changed repertoires repeatedly, also with significant success. Amongst them there are several WCh's. So this is not a strong argument either.


Even then their primary weapons often don't change (ie: Kramnik's Petroff, Kasparov's/Fischer's Najdorf, Anand's Semi-Slav, Karpov's NID) throughout their career even with additions to the repertoire. Why? Simple - the longer you've been playing something the better you understand it.

Pick a set of openings, get the theory down, become a master at other parts of your game once the openings are no longer a concern, and once you've got all the basics down, start adding more openings.

If your repertoire is good enough to start out with, there's not a single reason on Earth why those should have any reason to change even all the way up to becoming titled in the vast majority of cases.

Is there anyone that's going to argue that a repertoire with 1. e4 with the Ruy Lopez, and main lines in all responses is going to need changing?

How about one that relies on the Sicilian Najdorf and Semi-Slav as black?

Sure, there's a lot of theory, but as I said once before - once you know it, you know it, and then you can move on to other aspects while knowing full well you're going to be fine in the beginning stages.

The problem is most people get lazy, don't want to bother learning anything critical, then they become disillusioned with their repertoire, and want to change it altogether. It's no different from the clients I get in the personal training world that can't stick to a program because they (in their inexperience) feel it is lacking something.
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #18 - 07/04/09 at 12:11:33
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swingdoc wrote on 07/03/09 at 21:21:39:

This depends on the openings you play. Many of those gimicky or system openings will produce the same structures over and over, but flexible, mainline openings obv are a different story.


Bingo.

You nailed it exactly on the head - hence why I'm talking about elite repetoire in terms of openings chose - not gimmicks.
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #17 - 07/04/09 at 12:06:17
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MNb wrote on 07/04/09 at 06:24:50:
Willempie wrote on 07/03/09 at 20:04:36:

At my level you see this a lot. Players can play the most daring gambits and win in style, but are at a loss when they face a Rubinstein French. As they dont vary their setups (and dont study their errors) they tend to stay at their level.


Not really a strong argument - this only means they have to expand their horizon a bit and find themselves an aggressive way to counter the Rubinstein French. Castling queenside is a first step.

Yes they should expand their horizons, but not necessarily by choosing a similar setup to the rest of their openings. The problem is not that they can't deal with the Rubinstein, the problem is that they can't deal with open positions where there is no immediate attack available. To me that would seem like an area where you could quickly improve by taking up this line (or a similar line) for a little while as black. Next time when you face a similar line you will have a better idea of what to do.
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #16 - 07/04/09 at 11:02:08
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Quote:
Why is it so difficult for forum members to spell "repertoire" correctly?

Maybe a small repertoire is a reprtoire?

repertoire
reptroire
rptoire
prtore
prtre
rptr

Therefor the "rptr" is the basic repertoire!
q.e.d.
  
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #15 - 07/04/09 at 10:12:15
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Why is it so difficult for forum members to spell "repertoire" correctly?

Perhaps there is a large proportion of dyslexics (undoubtedly males) among those of us who play chess and haunt on-line forums such as this one (which is actually well above the average for literacy, as such forums go).

         Cheesy
  
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MNb
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #14 - 07/04/09 at 06:24:50
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Willempie wrote on 07/03/09 at 20:04:36:

At my level you see this a lot. Players can play the most daring gambits and win in style, but are at a loss when they face a Rubinstein French. As they dont vary their setups (and dont study their errors) they tend to stay at their level.


Not really a strong argument - this only means they have to expand their horizon a bit and find themselves an aggressive way to counter the Rubinstein French. Castling queenside is a first step.

BPaulsen wrote on 07/03/09 at 13:49:46:

A few players come to mind as people that's repetoire didn't substantially change throughout their career, but had significant success.


And a few others come to mind as players who changed repertoires repeatedly, also with significant success. Amongst them there are several WCh's. So this is not a strong argument either.
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #13 - 07/03/09 at 21:21:39
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Willempie wrote on 07/03/09 at 20:04:36:
MartinC wrote on 07/03/09 at 15:50:07:
Of course one thing to switch openings to keep yourself interested, quite another to do so in a (often) misguided effort to improve your results!

I dont quite agree. I follow a little the reverse argument that Cox uses (he argues that you have to set as many problems for your opponent as soon as possible to have the best chance of winning). I think you can improve if you encounter as many problems behind the board as possible and compare your solution with what Gm's would play. For that reason sticking to a repertoire imo makes improving more difficult as you end up with the same structures time and again. 


This depends on the openings you play. Many of those gimicky or system openings will produce the same structures over and over, but flexible, mainline openings obv are a different story.
  
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #12 - 07/03/09 at 20:04:36
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MartinC wrote on 07/03/09 at 15:50:07:
Of course one thing to switch openings to keep yourself interested, quite another to do so in a (often) misguided effort to improve your results!

I dont quite agree. I follow a little the reverse argument that Cox uses (he argues that you have to set as many problems for your opponent as soon as possible to have the best chance of winning). I think you can improve if you encounter as many problems behind the board as possible and compare your solution with what Gm's would play. For that reason sticking to a repertoire imo makes improving more difficult as you end up with the same structures time and again. 
At my level you see this a lot. Players can play the most daring gambits and win in style, but are at a loss when they face a Rubinstein French. As they dont vary their setups (and dont study their errors) they tend to stay at their level.

As to the original question. Just look at a couple of lines in the openings you mention and play them and then decide to continue with them or not. I dont think any of the openings you mentioned disallows the "open" rule so Markovic will prolly not get angry Wink
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #11 - 07/03/09 at 15:50:07
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I'm very much with MNb here. Just vastly too boring to play the same thing over and over. Can in some ways be fairly limiting too.

Even if it is in some sense objectively better to play one thing all the time it won't get you better results if you start getting bored in doing so Smiley

Of course one thing to switch openings to keep yourself interested, quite another to do so in a (often) misguided effort to improve your results!
  
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #10 - 07/03/09 at 13:49:46
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MNb wrote on 07/03/09 at 02:57:51:

Usually I think your opinions very sensible, but not this time. Chess is way too rich for playing an opening my entire life! What's more, I would probably have to give up chess out of boredom. In fact there is only one variation I have played almost exclusively (given the chance) since I began looking at opening theory.
I don't mean to say that you have to develop a new repertoire twice a year or so. For me a few major changes every six years works best. Last time was switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4.
Anyway, just another opinion.


A few players come to mind as people that's repetoire didn't substantially change throughout their career, but had significant success. Chiefly Fischer comes to mind, as nothing ever replaced his KID/Najdorf as black, and to that end if one's opening choices are good enough they don't need to change - they can always remain primary throughout an entire career.

A person should start with a repetoire that is consistently proven at the elite level, and stick to it. Period. They can make repetoire changes within that opening, but they shouldn't go and dramatically change anything (ie: 4...d5 in the Classical NID instead of 4...0-0, as opposed to dropping the NID to take up the Slav). If your openings are set, then once you know them, you know them, and even if they're extremely theoretical it isn't a problem. Once the time is invested you're mostly done with it and just have to do small updates.

They can start adding stuff once they are over 2000. There is way too many sub-2000 players that have no business wasting their time learning all kinds of different openings, when that time would be better devoted developing substantial expertise within a set repetoire, and/or studying other areas.

Is the goal to produce success at the chessboard, or just enjoy learning about the game without care for performance?
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #9 - 07/03/09 at 08:22:35
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Zatara wrote on 07/01/09 at 20:06:03:
Thanks TN and everyone else who responds for your time and patience on these matters!!!!  
I am thinking of taking up the chigorin as black for the following reasons:
1. I am well under 2000 USCF
2. Because of that it I think I should, as Markovic recommends: spend time with open positions.
3. I think the Chigorin is "better" than the Tarrasch or the Albin.
4.  The Grunfeld has a lot of theory and would have to learn something else in addition to all the theory on the Grunfled after 1.Nf3 or 1.c4.  Even though it is sharp and open...
5. Though I like the attacking prospects of KID I should study open positions

6. What do you think of these ideas or is my time better spent on the Semi Slav??  or should I play both??!!!

7. I am thinking between playing 1...e5 and Schliemann vs Ruy and 2 knights vs Bc4 or playing the Schevenigen Sicilian what do you think??  Or play both??!?!?!

Thanks as always,
Zatara


1. In that case, the main focus of your studies should not be openings. Obviously some opening study is required, but keep in mind that in the vast majority of your games, the game will not be decided by the opening phase. 

2. I agree with Markovich's suggestion, but will add that you should only play something you feel comfortable with. 

3. All three are good practical choices, but I also prefer the Chigorin to the Tarrasch or Albin, as in my opinion it is a more reliable long-term choice. In my experience, the Tarrasch is very ineffective against a well-prepared player (although you shouldn't worry about this below 2000 USCF), and the Albin is a clear +=. There are also more sources to study the Chigorin, although the best source is probably Morozevich/Barsky's work. 

4. I would not recommend the Grunfeld - too theoretical and White has much more choice than Black, making it an unreliable long-term opening. Perhaps I am just biased (I have never been a fan of the Grunfeld), but that is my opinion. And as you stated, it gives you some transpositional difficulties against 1.Nf3 and 1.c4 - a completely new variation would be required.

5. If you like the King's Indian and you have some knowledge of the theory and plans, then play it! Whether an opening is 'open', 'semi-open' or 'closed' should not influence your decision - more important is whether you understand the opening and enjoy playing it.

6. You seem to have been interested in the Semi-Slav from Black's perspective for a long time. It's a very good choice as a long-term opening, but I agree with the other posters that a somewhat less theoretical choice may be the most prudent option. But if you have tried the Semi-Slav and score well with it, then I suggest making it your main defence to 1.d4 as Black.

7. I will recommend the Scheviningen Sicilian. In my view, the problem with 1...e5 is that most of your opponents will avoid the Ruy Lopez in favour of other sidelines, which can be somewhat irritating for a player seeking a dynamic, imbalanced middlegame. The Anti-Sicilians can be annoying at first, but Black has plenty of ways to imbalance the game to suit his desires. 

8. I will also suggest the Tango (mentioned by Stigma in another, related thread) as being an option that is worth considering if you prefer something a bit more creative and don't mind Nimzoesque positions as Black.
  

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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #8 - 07/03/09 at 04:32:52
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thanks everyone who responded...  These are the type of answers I wanted.  They give an answer and back it up!!!   
Thanks,
Zatara
  
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MNb
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Re: black reprtoire
Reply #7 - 07/03/09 at 02:57:51
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BPaulsen wrote on 07/02/09 at 13:00:32:

Firstly - whatever you pick should be sound up to the highest levels, and represent something you can play for life - go with something with an extremely high pedigree. Given your level just pick one and stick to it through thick and thin, constantly vacillating is not going to improve your play. Anyway, that's my opinion.


Usually I think your opinions very sensible, but not this time. Chess is way too rich for playing an opening my entire life! What's more, I would probably have to give up chess out of boredom. In fact there is only one variation I have played almost exclusively (given the chance) since I began looking at opening theory.
I don't mean to say that you have to develop a new repertoire twice a year or so. For me a few major changes every six years works best. Last time was switching from 1.e4 to 1.d4.
Anyway, just another opinion.
  

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