ChessPub Forum - Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7

BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #86 - 11/24/10 at 19:22:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Continuing the discussion on this line by myself I suppose, since the above one is likely += and not everyone's cup of tea. 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Bf5 5. Ng3 Bg6 6. Bc4 e6 7. N1e2 Nf6 8. 0-0 Bd6 (position can also be reached via 8...Nbd7 9. f4 Bd6 10. f5 exf5 11. Nxf5 Bxf5 12. Rxf5 Qc7) 9. f4 Qc7 10. f5 exf5 11. Nxf5 Bxf5 12. Rxf5 Nbd7. The idea is black wants to play 0-0-0, sacrificing the f-pawn if necessary, and obtaining active play versus the white king that suddenly feels more airy with black's king well sheltered on the Q-side. This appears to be the most ambitious way to handle the line as black without allowing the different piece sacrifice lines white can try to peter out to draws where black is tight-rope walking. It has done alright in practice, but whether it's bulletproof theoretically is another matter. So far in my testing it seems unclear.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
	YIM AIM IP Logged

BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #85 - 11/10/10 at 02:19:20	Post Tools	Print Post
	Just throwing this out there - black can consider 8...Bd6 9. f4 Bf5!? 10. Nxf5 exf5 11. Ng3 g6 12. Re1+ Kf8 if a draw isn't okay. The overall structure is similar to some of the 4...Nf6 5. Nxf6 exf6 lines, black's pawns are all on light squares, and e4 is potentially useful given white's Pd4/Pf4 front. White's B pair isn't particularly useful at the moment, either.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
	YIM AIM IP Logged

Stigma God Member Offline There is a crack in everything. Posts: 3277 Joined: 11/07/06 Gender:	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #84 - 11/09/10 at 22:23:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Despite Schandorff's and Houska's attempts to defend the Caro-Kann as a dynamic winning try, I think it's still fair to say that Black should be happy with a draw to play it. Some of Schandorff's lines against the Panov-Botvinnik and the Two Knights' look very drawish to me, though not exactly forced draws.

	Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
	IP Logged

HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	Re: page22 (Classical 6.Bc4)--a suspicious position Reply #83 - 11/09/10 at 22:04:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: HoemberChess wrote on 11/09/10 at 18:01:15: But if we follow the book recommendation, it is only a draw by repetition--that worries me... Where should we deviate? You could try 1...a6 - no forced draws that I am aware of... That a book repetition leads to a forced draw is only a practical problem if it is early, well known and you are playing someone you don't really want to draw with. The danger of someone whipping out a novelty on move 19 that their computer found to force a draw seems fairly remote to me. How likely are you really to have this in any of your games? For me the answer is "extremely low" and there are more important things to worry about. If the novelty yielded a forced win for white, that would be a different matter... I understand your point. But noone can say seriously that it is O.K. to follow a book recommendation that is supposed to be superior for Black, and then realize over-the-board that it is at most a draw with best play. (According to the book, Black has winning chances after 19.Rxe7+ etc.)

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
	WWWGTalk IP Logged

Pantu Ex Member	Re: page22 (Classical 6.Bc4)--a suspicious position Reply #82 - 11/09/10 at 18:29:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	HoemberChess wrote on 11/09/10 at 18:01:15: But if we follow the book recommendation, it is only a draw by repetition--that worries me... Where should we deviate? You could try 1...a6 - no forced draws that I am aware of... That a book repetition leads to a forced draw is only a practical problem if it is early, well known and you are playing someone you don't really want to draw with. The danger of someone whipping out a novelty on move 19 that their computer found to force a draw seems fairly remote to me. How likely are you really to have this in any of your games? For me the answer is "extremely low" and there are more important things to worry about. If the novelty yielded a forced win for white, that would be a different matter...


	IP Logged

HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	Re: page22 (Classical 6.Bc4)--a suspicious position Reply #81 - 11/09/10 at 18:01:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	Quote: HoemberChess wrote on 11/09/10 at 09:58:35: BTW, I use the engine FireBird, but my computer is not very strong. Perhaps you know that computers will head for a 0.00 line instead of a 0.10 line as the 0.00 is "better" but for all practical purposes otb there is no difference? The position is very rare - played in how many games? - and I really don't think any Caro-Kann sources will have this. Covering every single game ever played is a bit much! Try looking at 18 Qxf6 Rxf6 19 Rxf6 Kf8 without the computer and see how you like the position - the material balance is a bit weird so I'm not sure I'd trust the computer evaluation exactly. Then in the unlikely event that you ever reach it otb, you can either take the draw or play on if you are happy. Sorry, but I'll have to correct you. It continues on the 19th (not 18th) move, with 19.Qxf6 Rxf6 20.Bxf6 0-0-0, which is given as "0.00". (after 20..Kf8, white is already better, whatever takes the e7B.) To begin with, the whole 8..Nbd7 variation is rare. (8..Bd6 is more common) Only 1 game with 14.Qxf5 in the databases. But if we follow the book recommendation, it is only a draw by repetition--that worries me... Where should we deviate?

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
	WWWGTalk IP Logged

Pantu Ex Member	Re: page22 (Classical 6.Bc4)--a suspicious position Reply #80 - 11/09/10 at 17:17:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	HoemberChess wrote on 11/09/10 at 09:58:35: BTW, I use the engine FireBird, but my computer is not very strong. Perhaps you know that computers will head for a 0.00 line instead of a 0.10 line as the 0.00 is "better" but for all practical purposes otb there is no difference? The position is very rare - played in how many games? - and I really don't think any Caro-Kann sources will have this. Covering every single game ever played is a bit much! Try looking at 18 Qxf6 Rxf6 19 Rxf6 Kf8 without the computer and see how you like the position - the material balance is a bit weird so I'm not sure I'd trust the computer evaluation exactly. Then in the unlikely event that you ever reach it otb, you can either take the draw or play on if you are happy.


	IP Logged

HoemberChess God Member Offline Posts: 512 Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess Joined: 10/08/07 Gender:	page22 (Classical 6.Bc4)--a suspicious position Reply #79 - 11/09/10 at 09:58:35	Post Tools	Print Post
	Alias wrote on 11/09/10 at 08:18:40: How can it be a beginners question if you can't find the answer in several recent books or by using an engine? Since I might have overlooked something earlier... (?) [Two significant sources on the opening (books by Houska and Wells, respectively) don't even bother to mention the position (beginning with 14.Qxf5).] BTW, I use the engine FireBird, but my computer is not very strong.

	as W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc) B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]\| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]\| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6\| 1Nf3:c5
	WWWGTalk IP Logged

Alias God Member Offline Posts: 1512 Location: East of the river Svartån Joined: 11/19/04	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #78 - 11/09/10 at 08:18:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	How can it be a beginners question if you can't find the answer in several recent books or by using an engine?

	Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
	IP Logged

HoemberChess

God Member

Offline

Posts: 512
Location: Lake d4 on Planet Chess
Joined: 10/08/07
Gender: Male

page22 (Classical 6.Bc4)--a suspicious position
Reply #77 - 11/08/10 at 19:32:47

Post Tools

Print Post

On page 22, which belongs to Chapter 3 (Classical Variation 6.Bc4),
I found an interesting position after the initial moves
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.Bc4 e6 7.N1e2 Nf6 8.0-0 Nbd7 9.f4 Nb6 10.Bd3 Bxd3 11.Qxd3 g6
(this line is given also in the Houska-book)

12.f5!? gxf5 13.Nxf5 exf5
(here Wells, in his GM Secrets: The C-K, only gives 14.Bg5 h6 "!")
14.Qxf5.

The book refers to a game between Huerga Leache and Gomez Esteban (2007), which continued 14..Be7 15.Bg5 Nbd5 16.Nc3 Rg8 17.Rae1 Rg6.
"White's pressure is coming to an end. Best is probably 18.Nxd5 Qxd5 19.Rxe7+ Kxe7 20.Bxf6+ Kf8 with a pawn for the exchange, but of course Black is better and has good winning chances."

BUT:
After 18.Nxd5 Qxd5, as given in the book,
(FEN string: "r3k3/pp2bp1p/2p2nr1/3q1QB1/3P4/8/PPP3PP/4RRK1 w q - 0 19")

my engine says, 19.Qxf6 (queen sacrifice) and the evaluation won't jump away from 0.00 any more...
So, what to do if White plays this way, with 14.Qxf5 etc? (I wouldn't like to agree to a draw just because I have played this line up to move 11 according to the book.)

I presume this must be a Caro-Kann Beginner's question. (The variation is not that new...)

« Last Edit: 11/09/10 at 12:51:51 by HoemberChess »

as
*W 1d4) Torre/Barry/Pirc/Philidor/ early _d5:early c4(QGD/Slav/QGD/etc)
*B) 1e4:e6 [+1_c5 2Nf3 a6]| 1d4:e6 2c4 Bb4+ BID/pseudoNID [+1_Nf6 NID]| 1c4:c5,_Nc6,_e5,_g6| 1Nf3:c5

WWW

GTalk

IP Logged

topandkas Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 74 Joined: 11/05/09	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #76 - 11/04/10 at 10:19:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	In Chapter 5. 11.Bd2 (13.Ne4 sideline) Schandorf thinks that Black shoud play 13...Nxe4 instead of castling. He reasons that 13...0-0 doesn't work in view of 14.g4! He goes on to claim that 14...Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Nf6 16. Qe2 Qd5 17.g5! is good for White. While I do agree that 17...Qxa2 18.c4! looks good for White he does not mention how White is better after 17...hxg5. Ive looked at several lines but think Black is fine. For instance: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Bf5 5.Ng3 Bg6 6.h4 h6 7.Nf3 Nd7 8.h5 Bh7 9.Bd3 Bxd3 10.Qxd3 e6 11.Bd3 Ngf6 12.0-0-0 Be7 13.Ne4 0-0!? 14. g4 Nxe4 15.Qxe4 Nf6 16.Qe2 Qd5 17.g5 hxg5!? 18.h6 Qe4 19.Be3 Nd5 and Black seems to be OK.


	IP Logged

BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #75 - 10/08/10 at 12:00:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Even aside from the 5...c5 variation black has a more French-like response in the form of 5...Nd7 6. 0-0 Bg6 intending Nh6, not being overly concerned about doubled h-pawns, and only playing Nf5 when it is a good idea to do so. Both are in excellent theoretical shape right now. Jobava prefers a set-up with Ne7-f5, which can leave the N awkwardly placed since it's done so soon.
	« Last Edit: 10/08/10 at 13:32:26 by BPaulsen »
	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
	YIM AIM IP Logged

Papageno Senior Member Offline FM Posts: 299 Location: Germany Joined: 06/12/08 Gender:	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #74 - 10/07/10 at 11:04:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, Schandorff covers of course this Caro-Kann Advance system but his recommended setup is different to Jobava's play. Instead, his approach can be seen in the game Leko - Le Quang Liem, Dortmund 2010. (1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nf3 e6 5. Be2 c5 6. Be3 cxd4 7. Nxd4 Ne7 etc.)
	« Last Edit: 10/07/10 at 15:39:53 by Papageno »

	IP Logged

clickclick Junior Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 57 Joined: 10/06/10	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #73 - 10/07/10 at 10:40:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hello, Does Schandoorf cover the line recently played in the Shirov - Jobava game? Just curious, as this book looks very tempting for Christmas : )


	IP Logged

Michel Barbaut Junior Member Offline Do. Or do not. There is no try Posts: 58 Location: France (Auberchicourt) Joined: 03/05/10 Gender:	Re: Grandmaster Repertoire Vol 7 Reply #72 - 09/08/10 at 22:23:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	Now, there is also the following : "Shirov: The Advance Caro-Kann 2nd Edition" I would like to see the contents, I only read that "material added concentrated on 1.e4,c6 2.d4,d5 3.e5,Bf5 4.Nf3 & 5.Be2 But I wonder if the 7,5 hours are only about this one (system) or not ? If anayone can answer ... much appreciated !


	IP Logged