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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Rare lines for White in the Benko (Read 17242 times)
derdudea
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #18 - 02/17/11 at 19:03:51
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/16/11 at 17:45:02:
Also, you didn't respond to my sample line.  With your 6.a7 move order: 13.a4 Qa8 and now what do you propose for White?


Now I understand a little bit better. 
What I hoped for was that White could contain Blacks play by taking control of b5, c4 with his knights and bringing his bishop to g5 or c3. If White can get away with blockading the queenside and denying Black aggressive play there and then using his space advantage to start active play in the centre or on the kingside while black has to look for the a-pawn to become very dangerous, he will have an excellent position like in the game Loinjak - Leonard 

Unfortunately Black can play a quick c4 in the variation you suggested and get enough play:

13.a4 Qa8 14.Ra3 Rc8 15.Qc2 c4! 16.Nd4 Ne5 17.Ncb5 Ra6 18.f3 Nfd7 19.Bg5 Bf8 20.Rha1 Nc5 21.f4 Ned3
and Black has solved his problems, since after 22.Qxc4 Nxb2 all queenside pawns will be eliminated 

As a result you´re right: Placing Black´s Rook on a7 with the intermediate 6.a7 has no advantages over the mainline.

I will continue analysing the mainline with 12.a4, if it´s more convincing, I will post about it in the main thread.
  
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #17 - 02/17/11 at 01:26:25
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/16/11 at 17:45:02:
With your 6.a7 move order: 13.a4 Qa8 and now what do you propose for White?

To me your post was completely clear. In the normal Benkö (ie with Bxa6) the whole idea of ...Ra7 is to follow up with ...Qa8 and ...Rb8. This has been known since a game Gheorgiu-Beljavsky some 30 years ago.
Instead of that last move Rb8 and because of 13.a4 I would be very tempted to play for ...c4 idea landing an octopus on d3, in which case the rook might be better on c8.
  

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ErictheRed
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #16 - 02/16/11 at 17:45:02
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Maybe my last post wasn't clear so I'll try again.  I was calling 12...Ra7 a legitimate line, as it has been played by Khalifman and Adams, not 12.h3.

In the "normal" move order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cxb5 a6 5. bxa6 g6 6. Nc3 Bxa6 7. e4 Bxf1 8.Kxf1 d6 9. g3 Bg7 10. Kg2 Nbd7 11. Nf3 O-O 12. h3 Ra7, White can try 13.a4.  This transposes to the exact same position that you are looking at with 6.a7 and 13.a4, except that in your move order you have NOT played the useful move h2-h3.  So this MUST be inferior to the "normal" line from White's point of view.

Now, it might be only a little bit inferior.  You might also want to use this move order to force Black into these ...Ra7 lines, when they might normally play ...Ra6, ...Qa5, ...Qb6, etc.  It's the kind of idea that you can prepare ahead of time and have decent practical chances in a few games against someone that doesn't play the "normal" line with 12...Ra7.  But objectively, you're simply playing a standard main line WITHOUT the useful move h2-h3 included.

Also, you didn't respond to my sample line.  With your 6.a7 move order: 13.a4 Qa8 and now what do you propose for White?
  
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derdudea
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #15 - 02/16/11 at 12:47:30
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ErictheRed wrote on 02/16/11 at 07:32:41:
Does the Knight even want to be on b5?  It seems like the wrong square to me.  After 13.a4 I play 13...Qa8; now what?  14.Nb5 Rb7 hits both the e4-pawn and the Knight on b5.  After something like 15.Qe2 Rc8 16.Ra3 c4 I doubt any Benko players are losing sleep. 

I just don't see what the Knight does on b5, sorry.  And if you don't stick it there, Black is a tempo up on a main line.  Honestly, there's a very popular main line that runs 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cxb5 a6 5. bxa6 g6 6. Nc3 Bxa6 7. e4 Bxf1 8.Kxf1 d6 9. g3 Bg7 10. Kg2 Nbd7 11. Nf3 O-O 12. h3 Ra7.  It's been played by Khalifman and Adams so you know it's legitimate.  How on earth could giving Black an extra tempo be to White's benefit??  You've got the exact same position on the board except that White hasn't played h2-h3.  Maybe White can do without that move so he's fine, but sleepless nights?  Come on...


It may not be clear if the black rook is better on a7 or a8, but my argument is about lines with White playing a4. After the mainline (without 6.a7) you mention the "legitimate" 12.h3, but comparing it to the line with 6.a7 is not useful, since White does not play a4 in these lines.

The theoretically more relevant question is if 12.a4 in the mainline is better than 12.h3. The trend in recent correspondence chess is, that White has a big statistical edge after 12.a4. And since these were games played after 2005, these should be decent games with heavy computer use and while corrchess players have not Khalifmanns positional insight, the overall quality of the games should be very good and tell something about who has problems in that line.

In the Variation with a7 and 13.a4, two correspondence games were played which do not make me like Blacks chances: 


13...Db6 14.Te1 Tfa8 15.Sb5 Tb7 16.Sd2 Se8 17.Sc4 Da6 18.Ld2 Sb6 19.Sa5 Td7 20.Db3 h6 21.Sc6 1-0  Loinjak,S (2518)-Leonard,M (2198) 2009 - I doubt if the game really was over in that final position, but Black was already clearly worse.

13....Sb6 14.Te1 Da8 15.Dc2 Sfd7 16.Lg5 Se5 17.Sxe5 Lxe5 18.Lh6 Tc8 19.b3 Tb7 20.Tab1 Tbb8 21.Tec1 Db7 22.Sb5 Ta8 23.Sa3 f5 24.f3 Dd7 25.De2 fxe4 26.Dxe4 Df5 27.Le3 Df7 28.Lxc5 Sxd5 29.Ld4 Lxd4 30.Dxd4 Txc1 31.Txc1 Tf8 32.De4 Sf6 33.Dc4 Sd5 34.De2 Df6 35.Sc4 Tb8 36.Dd2 Df7 37.Dd3 Df5 38.Dxf5 1–0 Dutra,A (2507)-Riemer,W (2323) Corr 2009

And if I can choose between an offbeat line like 6.a7 oder a mainline, both almost by force leading to a very similar position, I would choose the offbeat line. Especially since some games show that b5 is at least a temporarily interesting place for White´ knight and Blacks choices are fewer. E.g. 12.a4 Qa5 in the mainline is Black´s second most played option (behind Qb6) and this is dubious in the a7 - line: 12.a4 Qa5?! 14.Nb5 Rb7 15.Bd2
  
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ErictheRed
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #14 - 02/16/11 at 07:32:41
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Does the Knight even want to be on b5?  It seems like the wrong square to me.  After 13.a4 I play 13...Qa8; now what?  14.Nb5 Rb7 hits both the e4-pawn and the Knight on b5.  After something like 15.Qe2 Rc8 16.Ra3 c4 I doubt any Benko players are losing sleep. 

I just don't see what the Knight does on b5, sorry.  And if you don't stick it there, Black is a tempo up on a main line.  Honestly, there's a very popular main line that runs 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cxb5 a6 5. bxa6 g6 6. Nc3 Bxa6 7. e4 Bxf1 8.Kxf1 d6 9. g3 Bg7 10. Kg2 Nbd7 11. Nf3 O-O 12. h3 Ra7.  It's been played by Khalifman and Adams so you know it's legitimate.  How on earth could giving Black an extra tempo be to White's benefit??  You've got the exact same position on the board except that White hasn't played h2-h3.  Maybe White can do without that move so he's fine, but sleepless nights?  Come on...

  
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derdudea
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #13 - 02/16/11 at 02:56:18
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Reading through the newly revived thread on White´s best weapon against the Benkö, I revisited my idea mentioned above. It seems common sense, that 5....Ba6 6.b3 is good for white, leading to the remaining question

What´s the use of 5....g6 6.a7 Rxa7, placing the black rook on a7 instead of a8?

A pretty forcing line in the King´s walk system often used by Karpov goes 6.Sc3 Lxa6 7.e4 Lxf1 8.Kxf1 d6 9.g3 Lg7 10.Kg2 0–0 11.Sf3 Sbd7 and now White usually played 12.h3 or 12.Re1

The latest trend in correspondence chess seems to be 12.a4, scoring 72% in 34 games, which is not a sufficient bases for conclusions if it all were mistake-prone otb-games, but in 24 corrchess games from 2006-2010 (meaning: quality chess engines were used) White scores 77%. Regarding that there is no logical way to avoid the position after 12.a4, this should make Benkö-players nervous.

Coming back to 6.a7: Now 6...Txa7 7.Sc3 La6 8.e4 Lxf1 9.Kxf1 d6 10.g3 Lg7 11.Kg2 0–0 12.Sf3 Sbd7 13.a4 reaches the same position (except for the rook placed on a7 than a8) than the above mentioned line in the same forcing way. Here the rook on a7 seems to make play even more awkward for black, since White can play Sb5 in some lines attacking the rook and winning a tempo.

Shouldn´t that give Benkö fans some sleepless nights?
« Last Edit: 02/16/11 at 06:17:47 by derdudea »  
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Klick
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #12 - 02/07/11 at 14:31:53
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Quote:
Hello!

Sorry, I'm not a Benko-specialist, but could you explain to me how Black's rook being on a7 (in your first line) changes the position in White's favour?

To my eyes, it makes it easier for Black to double the rooks on the a-line or to play ...Qa8, pressuring a2 and d5.

So isn't Black just given an (admittedly not perfectly spent) extra tempo compared to the main lines?


I found one game where Ra7 was a weakness, but only because black played inferior moves: 
[Event "4th ch-EU"]
[Site "Liverpool ENG"]
[Date "2008.??.??"]
[White "Bennion,D"]
[Black "Majer,C"]
[Round "10"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2063"]
[BlackElo "2091"]
[ECO "A58"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cxb5 a6 5. bxa6
g6 6. a7 Rxa7 7. Nc3 Ba6 8. d6 Bg7 9. dxe7
Qxe7 10. Bf4 Ne4 11. Nd5 Qd8 12. Qc2 Qa5+ 13. b4
cxb4 14. Qxe4+ Kd8 15. Qe7+ Kc8 16. Rc1+ Nc6 17. Qxb4
Bb7 18. Ne7+ Kd8 19. Nxc6+ Bxc6 20. Qxa5+ Rxa5 21. Nf3
Rxa2 22. Ne5 Ke7 23. Nxc6+ dxc6 24. Bg5+ Kd7 25. e4
Re8 26. Bd3 Ra3 27. Bb1 f5 28. O-O fxe4 29. Rfd1+
Kc7 30. Bf4+ Kb6 31. Rd6 Rb3 32. Rdxc6+ Kb5 33. R1c5+
Kb4 34. Bd2+ Ka3 35. Bc2 Rb7 36. Bc1+ Kb4 37. Rc4+
Kb5 38. Ba4+ 1-0

Generally I don`t see how Ra7 is to whites advantage.

  

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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #11 - 09/10/09 at 21:31:19
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to my mind 4.Qc2 is a sound side-line. White wants to play e2-e4, but waits with the development with the N on b1 till Black decides what to do with his b5-Pawn. Critical variatin starts with 4...bxc4 5.e4 If i remember correctly there was survey on it by GM Igor Stohl in CBM 130 and in the new Yearbook 92 there is supposed to be a Survey by GM Moskalenko on it (title: how to refute the Benko or like that). Both are from the whites perspective Wink
  

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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #10 - 09/10/09 at 17:15:01
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When I was fishing for a "refutation" of the Benko I spent a lot of time on 4.a4.  It's a great blitz weapon, but it seems that most Benko players know what to do against it. 

4.Bg5 is also fun, but White still needs to address how to develop the k-side, maintain control of the center and not allow Black to "get away with murder" on the q-side. I guess I don't expect that much from 4.Bg5.   

Larry Evans' opinions haven't really awed me when it comes to opening concepts. When he was at his competitive peak he lost brutal games in the opening to players such as Tal, Geller, Taimanov and the usual Soviet suspects.   

In fact, if Larry Evans discounts a main line of the Benko I am more likely to see if it works.  (Here in the US Larry Evans seems to be revered so I take perverse pleasure in disagreeing with him.)

While White certainly has more than one way to play against the Benko I am really beginning to like the b3/Rb1 set-up.  I still need to learn move-order nuances, but it's looking like it's my final answer (for this month).
  
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #9 - 09/09/09 at 01:54:19
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4.a4 is worth a try

C. Ward - T Werbeck, Gent Op 2004
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. a4 bxc4 5. Nc3 d6 6. e4 g6 7. Bxc4 Bg7 8. f4 O-O 9. Nf3 Ba6 10. Bb5 Qb6 11. Nd2 Ne8 12. Nc4 Qd8 13. O-O d4+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Nxe3 Nc7 16. Qe2 Bb7 17. Bc4 Nd7 18. a5 a6 19. Ng4 e6 20. Nh6+ Kg7 21. Nxf7 Qe7 22. Nxd6 Qxd6 23. e5 Qe7 24. d6 Qh4 25. g3 Qh3 26. dxc7 1-0

  
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #8 - 09/08/09 at 15:56:42
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I don't think it's the best defence, but it's definately non-theoretical! I don't know the game you mentioned - will have a look at that. Thanks Cheesy
  

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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #7 - 09/08/09 at 14:42:13
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Larry Evans once had an apt comment about 4. b3 -- that it in effect lets Black get away with murder.  (It also lets him weaken White's pawn chain by moving the base of it up the board, one might say.)

I think some books have cited Masera-Benko, which shows the sort of "accident" White would have to try to avoid.
  
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #6 - 09/08/09 at 13:14:49
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How about 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. b3? It's about as non-theoretical as you can get (there is no theory!) and seems solid enough.
  

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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #5 - 09/07/09 at 20:18:28
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TN wrote on 09/07/09 at 09:56:31:
If I had to recommend a rare line for White against the Benko, I would advocate 4.Bg5 for tactical players and 4.Qc2 for more positional players. Black should equalise against both if he knows his theory well, but I am surprised at the large number of players who struggle against these rare lines. 

Alternatively you can avoid the entire question with 3.e3, but then you have to be prepared for a Panov-Botvinnik Attack after 3...cd4 4.ed4 d5.


I don't see the logic of 3...cd after 3 e3  letting white get a mainstream opening like a Panov, isn't 3...g6  more logical especially for a Benoni/Benkoplayer aiming on getting an unthreatening line of Benoni or Grunfeld?
  
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Re: Rare lines for White in the Benko
Reply #4 - 09/07/09 at 09:56:31
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If I had to recommend a rare line for White against the Benko, I would advocate 4.Bg5 for tactical players and 4.Qc2 for more positional players. Black should equalise against both if he knows his theory well, but I am surprised at the large number of players who struggle against these rare lines. 

Alternatively you can avoid the entire question with 3.e3, but then you have to be prepared for a Panov-Botvinnik Attack after 3...cd4 4.ed4 d5.
  

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