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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG update (Read 34626 times)
Gambit
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Re: BDG update
Reply #37 - 09/22/09 at 11:15:34
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MNb wrote on 09/22/09 at 03:43:11:
Gambit wrote on 09/22/09 at 02:41:34:

Regarding the pesky 4...c6 / 5...c6 lines, I suggest you read David Flude's earlier post here. He states that antidotes have been found.


First see, then believe. And as you failed to give us your ideas (despite your promise to send them to my email-address) for White in the Von Hennig-Milner Barry Gambit after bragging about them for several years I remain suspicious.
Stefan Bücker did a nice try though, but then he is not a man of hollow words.
You still suffer from Diemer's syndrome - too many exclams plus hope chess - hoping that your opponents will play suboptimal moves.
8.h3 vs. the Bogoljubow Defence is nice, even though 8...Nc6 followed by 9...Na5 or 9...Bf5 is better than your line - and typically you neglect it to make your point. It hampers the GPA-attacking scheme Qd1-e1-h4, Bh6, Ng5.


I can try sending it again. Or don't you remember that I sent it to you and the email  came back to me for some reason?
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: BDG update
Reply #36 - 09/22/09 at 11:11:46
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Re. Gambit, again it's important to differentiate objective merits vs practical results, which can often be at odds except at high levels.  

Practically speaking I have no qualms about playing the BDG from time to time at the 1600-1800 level, usually transposing via the Scandinavian, French or Caro-Kann, or rarely via a move-order of 1.d4, 2.Nc3 and 3.e4.  I think White's compensation against all lines is sufficient to score heavily at that level, and probably much beyond it, even though it may not always objectively be enough.

I don't know any line in which Black can definitely prove more than equality (5...Bf5 6.Bd3 gives White an extra tempo on a decent line of the Soller Gambit- detailed analysis by Stefan Bucker & Markovich followed, after 5...g6 I like 6.Bg5, with 7.Qd2, 0-0-0 and Bh6 to follow, and the 5...Bg4 6.h3 lines were fine for White last time I checked).  But at the same time I am not confident that in the final analysis, such a line would not exist.  Like Markovich I find it hard to believe that the BDG is objectively better than the Danish/Goring, or for that matter even as good as.

If we do get a mention of the BDG in an update I will certainly be interested to see what comes up.
  
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IM Christoph Wisnewski
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Re: BDG update
Reply #35 - 09/22/09 at 08:24:38
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Stigma wrote on 09/20/09 at 16:59:49:
I think Cristoph has played the Veresov, and maybe other "d-pawn specials" too. So you shouldn't jump to the conclusion that he's a one trick pony in this department. Smiley


As a matter of fact, being a fan of Summerscale's "Killer Chess Opening Repertoire" I played a number of d-pawn specials, though you will hardly find much games as most of them are not available on the Internet.

As for the BDG update, there are contract issues regarding my book that still need to be resolved; I asked my publisher about doing the update, but haven't gotten an answer yet.

Will keep you posted.
  

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Re: BDG update
Reply #34 - 09/22/09 at 03:43:11
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Gambit wrote on 09/22/09 at 02:41:34:

Regarding the pesky 4...c6 / 5...c6 lines, I suggest you read David Flude's earlier post here. He states that antidotes have been found.


First see, then believe. And as you failed to give us your ideas (despite your promise to send them to my email-address) for White in the Von Hennig-Milner Barry Gambit after bragging about them for several years I remain suspicious.
Stefan Bücker did a nice try though, but then he is not a man of hollow words.
You still suffer from Diemer's syndrome - too many exclams plus hope chess - hoping that your opponents will play suboptimal moves.
8.h3 vs. the Bogoljubow Defence is nice, even though 8...Nc6 followed by 9...Na5 or 9...Bf5 is better than your line - and typically you neglect it to make your point. It hampers the GPA-attacking scheme Qd1-e1-h4, Bh6, Ng5.
  

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Gambit
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Re: BDG update
Reply #33 - 09/22/09 at 02:41:34
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SWJediknight wrote on 09/21/09 at 22:01:27:
Stefan Bucker came up with some ideas against 4/5...c6 here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss42.pdf

The Danish does seem to give White full compensation if White recaptures with the knight (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3) for if Black goes 4...Bb4, then White can continue with Nge2 instead of transposing to the Goring with Nf3.  Or if 4...Nc6 then 5.Bc4, and if 5...Bb4 6.Nge2, or 5...Nf6 6.Nf3 and White has side-stepped the Goring main line.

White has a few relatively unexplored lines in the one and two-pawn variants of the Goring, which I believe may be better than the standard ones, though they might still not give full compensation: 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bg5, 6.Bc4 d6 (6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.Ng5) 7.Ng5, and 5.Bc4 cxb2 6.Bxb2 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.0-0.

However, I, too, personally have my doubts about White objectively achieving full compensation in all lines of the BDG.  As well as an early ...c6, there's 5...g6, 5...Bf5 (discussed on a previous thread) and 5...Bg4- though I think White gets full comp after 5...e6.


You can't be serious, SWJedi! I have played against 4...c6, 5...g6, 5...Bg4, 5...Bf5 and 5...e6 for many years. I have a good positive score against all these lines.

It sounds like you are talking about the case where Black knows how to play the defense; however, in most cases, this is not so. You think that in over-the-board tournament games Black is going to know the latest BDG theory? Not really! More to the point, the Black player will be very surprised to see a BDG!

The lines with 5...g6, the Bogoljubow Defense, have a weakness: Bg7!
Exchange the little bastard with a timely Bh6, and Black's position is in trouble!

1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 ef3 5 Nxf3 g6 6 Bc4 Bg7 7 00 00 8 h3! c6 9 Qe1 Nbd7 10 Qh4 Nb6 11 Bb3 Nbd5 12 Bd5 cxd5 13 Bh6! Bf5 14 Ng5!

is one possible line. Notice how the h3-pawn guards the key g4-square?

The lines with 5...Bg4, the Teichmann Defense simply give White a big edge in development and an attack. For instance:

5...Bg4 6 h3 Bh5 7 g4 Bg6 8 Qf3 c6 9 g5 Nfd5 10 Nxg6 hxg6 11 00 gives White a strong attack and a lead in development. Also possible is 11 Rf1

5...Bg4 6 h3 Bxf3 7 Qxf3 c6 and now:

8 Qf2, the Cieselski Variation

8 Be3, the Classical Variation

8 g4!, the Seidell-Hall Attack

In these lines, White has the 2 Bishops and open files, similar to the King's Gambit Accepted.

Now, I agree with you that the Euwe Defense, 5...e6, is extremely passive. White gets an edge there, since the Bc8 is shut out.

Regarding the pesky 4...c6 / 5...c6 lines, I suggest you read David Flude's earlier post here. He states that antidotes have been found.

Keep in touch.
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: BDG update
Reply #32 - 09/21/09 at 22:01:27
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Stefan Bucker came up with some ideas against 4/5...c6 here:
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss42.pdf

The Danish does seem to give White full compensation if White recaptures with the knight (1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3) for if Black goes 4...Bb4, then White can continue with Nge2 instead of transposing to the Goring with Nf3.  Or if 4...Nc6 then 5.Bc4, and if 5...Bb4 6.Nge2, or 5...Nf6 6.Nf3 and White has side-stepped the Goring main line.

White has a few relatively unexplored lines in the one and two-pawn variants of the Goring, which I believe may be better than the standard ones, though they might still not give full compensation: 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.c3 dxc3 5.Nxc3 Bb4 6.Bg5, 6.Bc4 d6 (6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 d6 8.Ng5) 7.Ng5, and 5.Bc4 cxb2 6.Bxb2 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nf6 8.0-0.

However, I, too, personally have my doubts about White objectively achieving full compensation in all lines of the BDG.  As well as an early ...c6, there's 5...g6, 5...Bf5 (discussed on a previous thread) and 5...Bg4- though I think White gets full comp after 5...e6.
  
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Re: BDG update
Reply #31 - 09/21/09 at 18:13:45
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Since neither the Danish nor the Goering, White's center-pawn gambits after 1.e4, offer full comp, it would be a little bit surprising if the Blackmar-Diemer offered full comp.  I don't say it's not possible, but it would be surprising.
  

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Re: BDG update
Reply #30 - 09/21/09 at 17:46:06
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Nowhere in earlier posts does it say that Christoph Scheerer has found any antidote to the ...c6 lines.
  
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Gambit
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Re: BDG update
Reply #29 - 09/21/09 at 17:17:40
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TonyRo wrote on 09/21/09 at 17:04:58:
How do you know Scheerer has come up with something against 4/5...c6 yet? The book isn't out yet! I wouldn't mind seeing a game in the future update with the critical ...c6 lines.


Check out earlier posts here!
  
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Re: BDG update
Reply #28 - 09/21/09 at 17:04:58
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How do you know Scheerer has come up with something against 4/5...c6 yet? The book isn't out yet! I wouldn't mind seeing a game in the future update with the critical ...c6 lines.
  
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Gambit
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Re: BDG update
Reply #27 - 09/21/09 at 16:50:14
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It is good to see that Christoph Scheerer has come up with antidotes to the 4...c6 and 5...c6 lines in the BDG. Now the old adage that Bobby Fischer once said still holds true:

"A gambit's refutation lies in its acceptance."

In other words, only by accepting the gambit can you attempt to refute it.


I look forward to buying a copy of Scheerer's book. Also, I would write a book myself about the BDG if there is a market for it!
  
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Re: BDG update
Reply #26 - 09/21/09 at 01:24:31
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No more talk of cowardice, Lev, or I'll delete you straightaway.  Talk chess or go somewhere else, I don't care which.
  

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Re: BDG update
Reply #25 - 09/20/09 at 19:52:28
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dmp4373 wrote on 09/20/09 at 05:53:01:

The d-pawn Specials universe covers a lot of different openings. It would be nice if a wide variety of them were reported on with some regularity. If you play the London System this site has been a gold mine and you've more than got your money's worth. If not...


I agree, but at least the last 2 months have seen a Tromp and Colle update, and now a BDG. It would be nice to see a Torre update next, perhaps?  Undecided
  
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Re: BDG update
Reply #24 - 09/20/09 at 16:59:49
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I think Cristoph has played the Veresov, and maybe other "d-pawn specials" too. So you shouldn't jump to the conclusion that he's a one trick pony in this department. Smiley
  

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Re: BDG update
Reply #23 - 09/20/09 at 05:53:01
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It's certainly good news that Christoph is interested in doing a BDG update. But what about after that? You can't have a BDG update every month; Mnb and the other anti-BDG crazies would have a heart attack!

The d-pawn Specials universe covers a lot of different openings. It would be nice if a wide variety of them were reported on with some regularity. If you play the London System this site has been a gold mine and you've more than got your money's worth. If not...
  
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