Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Italian - Hungarian defence (Read 12906 times)
GabrielGale
Senior Member
****
Offline


Who was Thursday?

Posts: 471
Location: Sydney
Joined: 02/28/08
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #20 - 10/25/09 at 12:19:49
Post Tools
Speaking of the Hungarian, here is the most recent game involving the Woman World Champion:

Kosteniuk, A - Calzetta Ruiz, M
European Team Championship
Novi Sad 22/10/2009.
Russia vs Spain

The game is annotated by GM Kevin Spraggett at http://kevinspraggett.blogspot.com/2009/10/game-of-week_23.html

4...d6 is played in response to 4 d4.
  

http://www.toutautre.blogspot.com/
A Year With Nessie ...... aka GM John Shaw's The King's Gambit (http://thekinggambit.blogspot.com.au/)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #19 - 10/10/09 at 13:39:22
Post Tools
TalJechin wrote on 10/08/09 at 08:55:22:
Anders wrote on 09/16/09 at 14:02:49:
Hi.

It is good to see Marin playing the variations he suggests.  He proposed playing 3...d6 in an opening article in a CBM magazine not so long ago.  

Cheers / Anders

Ps.
The above also applies to the Spanish variaton he suggested in "A Spanish repertoire for Black".


In his Beating the Open Games he recommends 3...Bc5 - though he mentions that he drew Short in the Hungarian as he was too afraid of the Evans. So, it's perhaps another case of 'do as he does and not as he says'...

3...d6 is way more sensible than entering the Evans less than 100% prepared - so it's unfortunate that Marin didn't give 3...d6 as an extra option for black.


Hi.

Marin only started playing 3...d6 this year so it is quite natural ... that it was not included in "Beating the Open Games" published in 2007.

When it comes to "do as he does and not as he says" I made a quick check of what Marin have played versus 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 and found other than 3...d6  

3... Bc5   => 16 games
3... h6     => 5 games
3... Be7   => 1 game

Given that I think the notion that he plays what he recommends still stands.

Regards / Anders

Ps.
I agree however that 3...d6 is a sensible (practical) way of limiting the amount of theory to cover including avoiding the Evans gambit.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #18 - 10/08/09 at 08:55:22
Post Tools
Anders wrote on 09/16/09 at 14:02:49:
Hi.

It is good to see Marin playing the variations he suggests.  He proposed playing 3...d6 in an opening article in a CBM magazine not so long ago.  

Regards / Anders

Ps.
The above also applies to the Spanish variaton he suggested in "A Spanish repertoire for Black".


In his Beating the Open Games he recommends 3...Bc5 - though he mentions that he drew Short in the Hungarian as he was too afraid of the Evans. So, it's perhaps another case of 'do as he does and not as he says'...

3...d6 is way more sensible than entering the Evans less than 100% prepared - so it's unfortunate that Marin didn't give 3...d6 as an extra option for black.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #17 - 10/07/09 at 21:02:53
Post Tools
Marin's game looks like a Philidor's defence Larsen's variation, but with an important extra tempo for Black. Compare:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 d6 4. d4 exd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. Be3 Nf6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O Re8 10. f3 Ne5 11. Be2 a6 (Lupulescu - Marin, 2009)

and

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 exd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. Qd2 O-O 8. O-O-O Re8 9. f3 Nc6 10. g4 a6 11. Be2 Ne5 (Rytshagov - Meijers, 2000)

Almost the same position, but in the Philidor version White already has a pawn on g4. According to the Chesspub PDF Black is in terrible trouble here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #16 - 10/07/09 at 20:14:19
Post Tools
ghenghisclown wrote on 09/16/09 at 18:23:18:
Yes, hi Anders. It is good to see practicing what he preaches. What is really good is that he played it and achieved a draw against a strong Grandmaster who is also is very strong in the openings that he plays!


Hi.

There is also another recent Marin example; the game against Lupulescu.

This is commented by Marin in CBM 132 but it also available for free from the ChessBase web-site as one of their promos for CBM.

Try the link below

http://www.chessbase.com/cbm/cbm132e/cbm132-03/lupulescu_marin.htm

Also this time the outcome was a draw.

Cheers / Anders
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10518
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #15 - 09/16/09 at 22:01:39
Post Tools
Of course when playing the Hungarian and wanting to keep the position closed you have a problem after the Scottish Gambit 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4. Black's two best options are transposing to the 2K and the Italian ... When following Marin 4...d6 is the way to go.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
God Member
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #14 - 09/16/09 at 20:18:28
Post Tools
I do not know of a book *solely* on the Hungarian... however, I have a copy of an old 100-or-so page monograph by Estrin which covers the Ponziani and Hungarian Defences as well as the Bishop's Opening. Again, he feels it entirely playable although +=

But since += never lost anyone a game except against Kramnik, I'd be inclined to say play it. I personally find it tougher to crack than either 3...Bc5 or 3...Nf6. 4.d4 is all well and good if white wants to grind for 50 moves... however, the likelihood is that this is not his aim, and anyway I believe black's position to be fine even in this variation.
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #13 - 09/16/09 at 18:23:18
Post Tools
Yes, hi Anders. It is good to see practicing what he preaches. What is really good is that he played it and achieved a draw against a strong Grandmaster who is also is very strong in the openings that he plays!
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #12 - 09/16/09 at 16:26:28
Post Tools
Nightlamp wrote on 09/16/09 at 15:03:47:
In which CBM was that?



Hi.

It was in CBM 128 under the heading "Avoiding symmetry in the Italian game (or the fianchetto Italian)".

Please note that ChessBase have much improved the CBM part of their website,  "ChessBase Magazine online" which can be reached after http://www.chessbase.com/indexcbm.asp

They now offer an index of old opening surveys via the web and for newer CBMs also a brief overview of the content and sometimes  sample articles.

For the overview of CBM 128, you can use the link below

http://www.chessbase.com/shop/product.asp?pid=427

and scroll down a bit to the listing of the opening surveys.

Cheers / Anders
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Nightlamp
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 23
Joined: 02/19/07
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #11 - 09/16/09 at 15:03:47
Post Tools
In which CBM was that?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Anders
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 107
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #10 - 09/16/09 at 14:02:49
Post Tools
ghenghisclown wrote on 09/16/09 at 11:29:38:
I believe Marin drew Tiviakov with 3. ...d6


Hi.

It is good to see Marin playing the variations he suggests.  He proposed playing 3...d6 in an opening article in a CBM magazine not so long ago. 

Regards / Anders

Ps.
The above also applies to the Spanish variaton he suggested in "A Spanish repertoire for Black".
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #9 - 09/16/09 at 12:41:49
Post Tools
3..d6 is imo indeed the best choice (with or without g6) if you want to avoid 3..Bc5 or 3..Nf6. I think Alekhine played it on occasion. You avoid the two nasty lines against the Hungarian and you delay a decision on the f8-bishop.
I would avoid 3..g6 though. I think the 4.d4 followed by c3 gives white an easy advantage.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #8 - 09/16/09 at 11:48:32
Post Tools
Thanks for pointing it out.  This is actually a line I am looking at currently as part of the g6 system:

[Event "Palau ITA open"]
[Site ""]
[Date "2009.??.??"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Tiviakov, Sergey"]
[Black "Marin, Mihail"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2697"]
[BlackElo "2564"]
[NIC "SO 6.13"]
[ECO "C50"]
[PlyCount "95"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 d6 4. d4 exd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Nc3 Bg7 7. Be3 Nf6 8. f3 O-O 9. Nxc6 bxc6 10. O-O Re8 11. Re1 Be6 12. Bb3 Qb8 13. Qd2 Qb4 14. Ba4 Qb7 15. Ne2 a5 16. Bd4 Bd7 17. c4 Qb4 18. Qc2 Nh5 19. Bxg7 Nxg7 20. c5 Ne6 21. cxd6 cxd6 22. Rad1 Rad8 23. Nc3 Nc5 24. Kh1 Re6 25. Re2 Be8 26. Red2 d5 27. Rd4 Qb7 28. Qd2 Re5 29. exd5 Nxa4 30. Rxa4 cxd5 31. Rxa5 Qb4 32. Ne2 Rb8 33. Qxb4 Rxb4 34. Rd2 Bb5 35. Ng1 Re1 36. Ra8  Kg7 37. Rb8 d4 38. h3 d3 39. b3 Rc1 40. a4 Rxb3 41. Rxb5 Ra3 42. Kh2 Raa1 43. Rxd3 Rxg1 44. Rd7 Rgb1 45. Kg3 h5 46. h4 Kf8 47. Rd6 Rg1 48. Rdb6 1/2-1/2
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
ghenghisclown
God Member
*****
Offline


Pedicare Vestri Latin

Posts: 1022
Location: HollyWeird
Joined: 07/19/06
Gender: Male
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #7 - 09/16/09 at 11:29:38
Post Tools
I believe Marin drew Tiviakov with 3. ...d6
  

"Experience is a dim lamp, which only lights the one who bears it."
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
urusov
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 147
Location: Kenilworth
Joined: 08/04/05
Re: Italian - Hungarian defence
Reply #6 - 09/16/09 at 03:12:08
Post Tools
I do not think you will find a book devoted to the Hungarian Defense, but a surprisingly encouraging resource is Jan Pinski's "Italian Game and Evans Gambit," where you will find three or four wins by Black discussed with the Hungarian -- even a game with the exchange line 4..d6 5.dxe5 dxe5 6.Qxd8 Bxd8 where Black wins.  I have not looked at these lines closely, since I have mainly been interested in lines for Black with an early ...g6 (e.g.: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 g6!?) which Pinski is also very positive about, and I think his analysis mostly holds up in that section, so overall he might not be so bad. 

However, if you are interested in the type of positions typical of the Hungarian, you might be better off to consider instead the Antoshin Variation of Philidor's Defense (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7), which is very similar and very solid and has many GM and IM supporters with recent games and analysis.  A great book is "The Philidor -- A Secret Weapon" by Christian Seel.  The big advantage of the Philidor is it will cut down a lot on the theory you will need to know -- and you can also play something similar against the d-pawn and flank openings with an early ...d6, as described for example in "An Explosive Chess Opening Repertoire for Black" by Yrjola and Tella.

Also interesting is the ...g6 line I mentioned, which also allows you to sidestep the Two Knights or Giuoco Piano.  I have two articles so far on it:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2009/06/black-fianchetto-system...
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2009/07/black-fianchetto-system...
More to come.  Here Pinski is best.

Finally, a third possibility worth considering as an alternative is the Closed Giuoco Piano line with an early ...Qe7 (e.g.: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 and now either 4...Bb6 or 4...Qe7 followed by ...d6 and strong-pointing e5.)  There are some classic games (see especially those of Euwe--and some encouraging games in Chernev's classic "Logical Chess, Move by Move") where Black does well with this.  It seems a tad more active than the Hungarian but with a similar strong-point idea.  You would then need lines against the Evans (perhaps declining with 4.b4 Bb6 or 4...d5!? or going for the Stoneware 4...Bxb4 5.c3 Bd6!?) and Max Lange Gambit (4.O-O d6! is best).
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo