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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Christoph's Gambit!? (Read 173023 times)
SWJediknight
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #47 - 12/16/09 at 15:21:58
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Stigma wrote on 12/15/09 at 04:20:39:
@dmp4373

Sure, BDG Lover can play anything he likes and does well with, and have fun. Nothing wrong with that.

Anyone who criticizes BDG players is implicitly assuming that the goal of any player is not just to have fun and score well in the present, but to improve and reach higher levels. And above a certain rating (2100 maybe) I really do think White is handicapping himself by always having to win by attack from a pawn-down or structurally weak position.

There is a hidden assumption among many BDG (and other offbeat openings) fans that the opponent will be well-prepared for the main lines and unprepred for the BDG. But on club level often the reality is that Black isn't well-prepared for anything at all! 

So White can play critical main lines, be only slightly better prepared than Black, and score many points while getting experience in a wide variety of positions and moving towards mastery. I think that's more satisfying than playing only attacking positions all the time, but that's just my opinion.


See this article here:
http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_rb/rb_ht_build_chess_open_rep.html

and this quote:
Quote:
I think the author sets up a straw man by evoking the problems encountered by Grandmasters Gallagher and Federov in playing the King's Gambit against world-class players. From this, he concludes that most players would be better off by, early on, learning and sticking to the Ruy Lopez (or maybe the Scotch). I don't think that this analogy really works for the average player. The bottom line is that, with limited time to study, most players would gladly accept the Gallagher/Federov problem (what to do when I get to grandmaster and can't play the King's Gambit against Shirov) as a risk worth taking. Granted, if you are an up-and-coming junior who hopes to make it to the Gallagher-Federov level, the advice might be worth considering. For the average player, however, it doesn't seem all that relevant.


Thus the problem with your assumptions regards how you define "higher levels".  All chessplayers aspire to improve to enough of an extent to enable them to get a lot out of the game, but not all chessplayers aspire to reach exalted levels.  This is true for various reasons- the need to study more at higher levels, and indeed the lower likelihood of getting away with risky sub-optimal play are just two of them.  I would suggest, though, that the point at which these opening are a handicap may be nearer 2400 rather than 2100, considering Morozevich's success with the Albin at 2600 level and Stefan Bucker's success with the Englund at the 2400 level.

Btw in the Euwe Defence I prefer 7.Qd2 when no path to advantage for Black has been found- and I disagree with giving 4.f3 a "?!".  White's slight inaccuracy was at move 2 with e4 instead of c4, and after 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6, 4.f3 may well be White's best move in the position.

I also don't see why the Lemberger (3...e5) shouldn't be considered as a line of the BDG.  True White hasn't played Diemer's 3...Nf6 4.f3, but the whole point of 3.Nc3 is to avoid Blackmar's 3.f3?! e5!.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #46 - 12/16/09 at 12:21:34
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What's this, the Euwe Defense, 5...e6 ? All right. Any BDG player worth his salt will tell you that after 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nd5 8 Nxd5? is a mistake, as it allows the freeing 8...exd5! The correct move is 8 Bxe7 Qxe7
9 Qd2 when the Black Queen Bishop is still undeveloped.

As for 8 Bd2?! it is not good, for it leaves intact a key Black defender, the Be7. BDG theory suggests 8 Bxe7
as the best move here.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #45 - 12/16/09 at 09:59:26
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My attempt at proving a definite advantage for Black in the LCG was unsuccessful, although White does have to play quite precisely to equalise. Therefore, it makes sense to have a look at a more critical attempt by Black.

[Event "Srbija i Crna Gora"]
[Date "2003"]
[White "Velimirovic, D."]
[Black "Kosic, D."]
[WhiteElo "2471"]
[BlackElo "2512"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 dxe4 4. f3?! exf3 5. Nxf3 Nf6 6. Bg5 Be7 7. Bd3
Nd5 8. Nxd5?! (Better is 8. Bd2 O-O 9. Nxd5 Qxd5 10. O-O but Black keeps the edge after c5 11. c4 Qd6 - TN) 8... exd5 9. Qe2 Be6 (9... h6!?) 10. h4 Nd7 11. O-O-O h6 12. Bf4 Bd6!N 13. Bxd6 cxd6 14. Bf5 Qf6 15. Bxe6 Qxe6 16.Qb5 O-O 17.Rhe1 (17. Qxb7 Rfc8 gives Black the initiative and an advantage) 17... Qf5 18. Re7 Rfc8 19. Qe2 Nf6 $1 20. Rxb7
Ne4 and Black is slightly better.

Obviously this isn't forced for either side, but the onus is on White to improve. 
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #44 - 12/16/09 at 09:42:36
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The Russians probably learned this from the Germans who call it Nordisches Gambit - indeed, Northern Gambit. So we Dutchies call it Noors Gambiet, which means Norwegian Gambit, even though the opening has nothing to do with this country. It was not even independent when the opening was popularized.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #43 - 12/16/09 at 04:53:51
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dmp4373 wrote on 12/16/09 at 02:56:04:
In 1991 Tom Purser published a book called, Blackmar Diemer Gambit Correspondence Tournament. It was a thematic tournament played by BDG enthusiasts. Each player having both white and black against each opponent. If my memory is correct, and I'm not 100% sure that it is, White only scored something like 42%. Very low and disappointing. This is probably the best source for getting an idea of how good the BDG really is against players that know it well. 

Do any of you BDG players have this book? And can you confirm white's %, either from this book or from your collection of BDG World magazine?


I happen to have a copy of that book, as well as all BDG World issues.

As for the Danish Gambit, in my native Russia there is a second name for it: Northern Gambit. That is because Denmark, Finland, Sweden, Norway are all northern countries.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #42 - 12/16/09 at 02:56:04
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In 1991 Tom Purser published a book called, Blackmar Diemer Gambit Correspondence Tournament. It was a thematic tournament played by BDG enthusiasts. Each player having both white and black against each opponent. If my memory is correct, and I'm not 100% sure that it is, White only scored something like 42%. Very low and disappointing. This is probably the best source for getting an idea of how good the BDG really is against players that know it well. 

Do any of you BDG players have this book? And can you confirm white's %, either from this book or from your collection of BDG World magazine?
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #41 - 12/16/09 at 00:49:27
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Gambit wrote on 12/15/09 at 23:52:42:
The game then enters a Saemisch-type Indian or Pirc. White can Castle on either side, depending on preference.


1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 g6 3.e4 d6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 (safer ...c6, but this is a special case) 6.Nc3 runs into e5
a) 7.d5 c6 8.0-0-0 cxd5 is a very dangerous countergambit, as James Vigus points out in Pirc/Modern, Dangerous Weapons, and I already knew since I played through Yudasin-Zaichik, Kostroma 1985. This attacking scheme vs. the Pirc is about the only opening variation I have been faithfull to in more than 25 years.
b) 7.Nge2 exd4 8.Nxd4 d5! is a line of the Philidor Defence (4...Nf6 and 5...g6) in which White has played f2-f3 too early.
White should avoid this stuff and head for a KID-Sämisch Attack.

Another chapter of Dangerous Weapons that might interest the BDG-player is the last one. James Vigus makes a strong case for 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 d6 3.e4 c5!? So I am not so sure if 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 is White's optimal move order to reach the BDG.

I should not have mocked LDZ without proper reason.
His statement that 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 cannot be called the Danish Gambit yet is futile. One of many reasons is that this sequence was invented by a Swede. Another one is that dxc3 4.Bc4 cxb2 5.Bxb2 Nc6 6.Nf3 immediately transposes to a position that more often arises to the Göring Gambit. Other white options on the 6th move are inferior.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #40 - 12/16/09 at 00:07:33
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Sometimes I read a post and am unsure whether it is meant to be taken seriously. 

[Markovich says:  This remark would be much more enlightening if it were in reference to something specific, and even better, if it included some chess.  I am trying to put a bridle on these BDG discussions, which historically here have been so explosive.  So I would like it if people would stick to chess.]
« Last Edit: 12/16/09 at 14:27:32 by Markovich »  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #39 - 12/15/09 at 23:52:42
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I tried playing the BDG via 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nc3 d5 3 e4 but found that the Hubsch Gambit was very annoying. The Lemberger Counter-Gambit, 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5 was also annoying, but a bit less so. I used to play the Sneiders Attack a lot until switching to 4 Nge2 and 4 Nxe4. Diemer himself used to play 4 Nxe4 against the Lemberger Counter-Gambit.
That said, I find that 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 does avoid both the Hubsch Gambit and the Lemberger Counter Gambit.

Yes, it is correct to say that after 1 d4 Nf6 2 f3 c5 the best move is 3 e3! which I tested in numerous blitz games. The game then enters a Saemisch-type Indian or Pirc. White can Castle on either side, depending on preference. As for 3 d5, it may not be a good idea to overextend the pawns so early.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #38 - 12/15/09 at 22:46:58
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Just one interesting thought... if Lev is so dead-set against calling the Lemberger a part of the BDG complex, then isn't all this debate on the BDG absolutely pointless?

It is almost impossible (in fact, it might *actually* be impossible) for white to enter the BDG without allowing black either the option of the Lemberger or of the Hubsch (both of which, to my knowledge, are most likely safer for black than the main BDG waters, though undoubtedly any chance of "refutation" lies in accepting the main gambit).

Therefore, if 3...e5 is not the BDG, then it is completely academic whether or not the actual BDG is any good. Black can simply offer his countergambit (offering the pawn of course not being cowardice), avoid the gambit and get a comfortable-ish game.

In fairness, I still like the Schneiders for white, and in my experience very few people are properly prepared for even this fairly standard thrust against 3...e5. I know nothing of the Rasmussen but am not convinced by it... 4.Nxe4 might well be best, but again black gets at least equality whilst sidestepping most of white's most trappy and tricky lines.

It might actually be that 1.d4 d5 2.e4 is inaccurate in this case. Perhaps 1.d4 Nf6 2.f3 is a better try, since 2...c5 and white can most likely make f3 useful in a Samisch-type structure, and any other move than 2...d5 allows white to take over the centre with 3.e4. And since 2...d5 3.e4 rules out both the Hubsch (which I do not trust for white) and the Lemberger (which I do not enjoy playing as white), it seems to me that this could be a better move order.

Of course, most people who play the BDG are not worried about objective soundness, and are happy to face the Lemberger or Hubsch. But if either of these are a concern, it might be the case that 2.f3 and a later e4, a la some Veresov lines, is a more logical move order?
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #37 - 12/15/09 at 13:41:21
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@TN:  Not that it matters much, but you certainly are in my "good books."

@MNb:  We have both sinned in this thread, but only I have repented.  There was no need for you to mention Lev in a sarcastic context before he had even posted to the thread.

@Lev:  Could you possibly criticise someone else's ideas without calling them nonsense?  Further if someone who wants to offer the BDG after 1...d5 must expose himself to the so-called Lemberger Counter Gambit, is it not a criticism of the BDG, at least after 1...d5, to say that this counter gambit is a strong reply?

As for BDG Lover, he certainly is entitled to post that he likes the BDG and not offer detailed analysis to support its objective merit.  Anyone else is also entitled to post in rejoinder that the BDG is no good.  Eventually unless they involve actual chess variations, disputations of this kind become vacuous.  So it's good that TN and Gambit are talking chess here.

Sometimes here we sound like a bunch of schoolboys debating whether some band rocks or sucks.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #36 - 12/15/09 at 08:22:36
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The naming of openings is not important - it's the quality of the openings that counts. 

Thanks for posting some moves, I wasn't aware of 4.Nge2 although I'm not impressed with the endgame for White. Here's my brief analysis:

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 e5 4. Nxe4 (4. Nge2 exd4 5. Qxd4 Qxd4 6. Nxd4 Nf6 7.
Bf4 c6 8. O-O-O Bb4 is slightly better for Black) 4... exd4 5. Bb5+ Bd7 6. Qe2 (6. Bg5 Bb4+ 7. c3 dxc3
8. Bxd8 c2+ 9. Qd2 Bxd2+ 10. Kxd2 Kxd8 11. Bxd7 Nxd7 12. Kxc2 Ngf6 gives White insufficient compensation for the pawn) 6...
Qe7 7. Nf3 Bxb5 8. Qxb5+ Nc6 9. O-O O-O-O 10.Re1 and White has sufficient compensation for the pawn.

My conclusion is that 4.Nge2 gives Black some advantage but that 4.Ne4 ed4 5.Bb5 should give White objective equality. 

@Markovich

I'm sorry about my earlier post. I had no intention of offending anyone and I will be more careful in the future. I'm probably not in your good books at the moment but I'll do my best to abide by the rules and offer some high-quality posts.
  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #35 - 12/15/09 at 07:22:33
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What a bunch of nonsense! Here is why the argument is flawed:

(1) The move order 1 e4 d5 2 d4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5 is known as the Lemberger Counter-Gambit. On the other hand, the BDG occurs after 1 e4 d5 2 d4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3.  To say that 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5 is the BDG is like saying that 1 e4 e5 2 d4 exd4 3 c3 is the Danish Gambit (3...dxc3 4 Bc4 cxb2 5 Bxb2).
Put another way, it is like saying that 1 e4 e5 is the King's Gambit.

(2) White erred early on. After 1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 e5 there are two ways for White to get good play:

2a: The Rasmussen Attack, 4 Nge2
2b: Lange Gambit, 4 Nxe4 and now:

2b1: 4...ed4 5 Bb5+ c6  6 Qe2
2b2: 4...Qd4 5 Bd3 with 6 Nf3 coming up

I have played both  lines on the Internet Chess Club and in OTB tournaments, with good results. My experience shows that people are less prepared for the Lange Gambit and the Rasmussen Attack than they are for the Sneiders Attack. As for the inferior 4 dxe5, I lost the first time I played it. I have not played that line since.

All your games cited demonstrate that 4 dxe5 is not best move for White to play. That's all. I think that if you check the databases, you will see that 4 Nxe4 and 4 Nge2 are better moves.
  
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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #34 - 12/15/09 at 06:43:56
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You want moves? You got moves!

[Event "Parsipanny US Amateur Team Ch. East"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2009.02.14"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Barnett, Jeffrey L"]
[Black "Barnes, J."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D00"]
[BlackElo "2248"]
[PlyCount "105"]
[EventDate "2009.02.??"]
[EventType "team"]
[EventRounds "6"]
[EventCountry "USA"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2009.03.16"]

1. e4 d5 2. d4 dxe4 3. Nc3 e5 4. dxe5 Qxd1+ 5. Nxd1 Nc6 6. Bf4 Nge7 7. Bb5 Bd7
8. Nc3 Ng6 9. Bg3 Bb4 10. Nge2 O-O-O 11. O-O-O Ncxe5 12. Bxd7+ Nxd7 13. Nb5 Bc5
14. Bxc7 Rde8 15. Bg3 a6 16. Nd6+ Bxd6 17. Rxd6 Re7 18. Rd4 Nb6 19. Rhd1 f5 20.
a4 Rd7 21. a5 Rxd4 22. Rxd4 Nd7 23. Rc4+ Kd8 24. Nf4 Nge5 25. Rc3 g5 26. Ne6+
Ke7 27. Nxg5 h6 28. Nh3 Nc6 29. Nf4 Rg8 30. Nd5+ Ke6 31. Nc7+ Kf7 32. Nxa6 f4
33. Bxf4 Rxg2 34. Bg3 Rg1+ 35. Kd2 Rb1 36. b3 Nd4 37. Nc5 Nf6 38. Be5 Nf3+ 39.
Rxf3 exf3 40. Bxf6 Kxf6 41. Nxb7 Ke7 42. a6 Kd7 43. b4 Kc7 44. Kc3 Rf1 45. b5
Rxf2 46. Na5 Kb6 47. Nc4+ Ka7 48. Nd2 Rxh2 49. Nf1 Rh1 50. Nd2 f2 51. Kb4 Rd1
52. c4 Rxd2 53. c5 0-1

[Event "Tweed Heads Oceania Zonal"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2009.06.20"]
[Round "1"]
[White "Stevens, T."]
[Black "Xie, G."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "2006"]
[BlackElo "2402"]
[PlyCount "96"]
[EventDate "2009.06.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "AUS"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2009.06.22"]

1. e4 d5 2. d4 dxe4 3. Nc3 e5 4. dxe5 Qxd1+ 5. Kxd1 Nc6 6. Nxe4 Nxe5 7. Bf4 Nf6
8. Nxf6+ gxf6 9. Nf3 Ng4 10. Bg3 Bf5 11. Bb5+ c6 12. Re1+ Kd7 13. Nd4 Bg6 14.
Be2 h5 15. h3 Nh6 16. Bc4 Bc5 17. Nb3 Bb6 18. Bh4 Rhe8 19. c3 Nf5 20. Bxf6 Bxf2
21. Rxe8 Rxe8 22. Kd2 Be3+ 23. Kd1 Bf4 24. Bd4 h4 25. Bd3 Kc7 26. Kc2 Ng3 27.
Bxg6 fxg6 28. Bf6 Re2+ 29. Kd3 g5 30. Nd4 Re3+ 31. Kc4 c5 32. Nb5+ Kc6 33.
Nxa7+ Kb6 34. Nc8+ Ka6 35. Rd1 Re6 36. Be7 Nf5 37. Bxc5 b5+ 38. Kb3 Kb7 39. Ne7
Nd6 40. Nd5 Nc4 41. Nxf4 gxf4 42. Rd7+ Kc6 43. Re7 Rg6 44. Kb4 Nxb2 45. Bd4
Nd3+ 46. Kb3 Rxg2 47. Rh7 Nc1+ 48. Kb4 Rb2+ 0-1

[Event "Parramatta Sydney International Open"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2009.04.18"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Stead, K."]
[Black "Schon, E."]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "D00"]
[WhiteElo "2087"]
[BlackElo "2186"]
[PlyCount "44"]
[EventDate "2009.04.??"]
[EventType "swiss"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "AUS"]
[Source "Mark Crowther"]
[SourceDate "2009.04.20"]

1. d4 d5 2. e4 dxe4 3. Nc3 e5 4. Qh5 Nc6 5. d5 Nf6 6. Qd1 Nd4 7. Bc4 Bg4 8. f3
exf3 9. gxf3 Bf5 10. Bd3 Bb4 11. Bg5 h6 12. Bh4 g5 13. Bg3 Nxd5 14. Kf2 Bc5 15.
Na4 Qe7 16. Ke1 Ne3 17. Qd2 Nexc2+ 18. Kf1 Bxd3+ 19. Qxd3 Nxa1 20. Ne2 Nac2 21.
Nec3 O-O-O 22. Ne4 Nf5 0-1

3/3 for Black in 2009 with 3...e5. Not a great advertisement for the BDG. 



  

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Re: Christoph's Gambit!?
Reply #33 - 12/15/09 at 04:20:39
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@dmp4373

Sure, BDG Lover can play anything he likes and does well with, and have fun. Nothing wrong with that.

Anyone who criticizes BDG players is implicitly assuming that the goal of any player is not just to have fun and score well in the present, but to improve and reach higher levels. And above a certain rating (2100 maybe) I really do think White is handicapping himself by always having to win by attack from a pawn-down or structurally weak position.

There is a hidden assumption among many BDG (and other offbeat openings) fans that the opponent will be well-prepared for the main lines and unprepred for the BDG. But on club level often the reality is that Black isn't well-prepared for anything at all! 

So White can play critical main lines, be only slightly better prepared than Black, and score many points while getting experience in a wide variety of positions and moving towards mastery. I think that's more satisfying than playing only attacking positions all the time, but that's just my opinion.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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