Normal Topic Two Knights, 4.d3 d5 (Read 4480 times)
Willempie
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Re: Two Knights, 4.d3 d5
Reply #5 - 11/01/09 at 14:43:03
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MNb wrote on 11/01/09 at 12:27:44:
You are right, somehow I assumed that Black had to play ...d5.
There is an intriguing question. Black's results after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 are much better than after the same sequence 4...Bc5. The difference is about 20%, too much to neglect. What could be the cause?

Well I think that d5 and Bc5 in general dont really match together when d4 hasnt been played. I think it may have to do that when d5 and Bc5 are both played, white can play d4 with gain of tempo and then e5 is loose or alternatively white can gain space on the q-side. With the bishop on e7 and then d5 (in one go) white still can play for d4 but then he doesnt win a tempo and for some reason e5 being lose isnt a problem. I guess it may have to with the ability to play e5-e4 or that the tempo not lost is just enough to square the center. Ie in the Ruy lines where Bc5 is played the pawn goes to d6 and I think the Marshall would be unplayable with a bishop on c5.
The few times Bc5 and d5 are good is when black has gained just enough time to kill the center, such as in teh main line Giuoco where black doesnt lose a real tempo due to Bb4+
  

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MNb
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Re: Two Knights, 4.d3 d5
Reply #4 - 11/01/09 at 12:27:44
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You are right, somehow I assumed that Black had to play ...d5.
There is an intriguing question. Black's results after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 6.c3 d5 7.exd5 Nxd5 8.Re1 Bg4 are much better than after the same sequence 4...Bc5. The difference is about 20%, too much to neglect. What could be the cause?
  

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Re: Two Knights, 4.d3 d5
Reply #3 - 11/01/09 at 11:53:03
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As far as I know the expansion on the queenside with b4 and a4 is considered harmless these days and a Black setup with ...d6 instead of d5 equalizes.

I agree with MNB that 4...Be7 with the ideas mentioned is also good.
  
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Re: Two Knights, 4.d3 d5
Reply #2 - 10/31/09 at 20:41:58
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An objection against Fllg's move order can be 6.b4 Bb6 7.a4. As in this Marshall Gambit (it's related to the more famous Spanish brother) the bishop ends up at d6 quite often I have come to the conclusion that 4...Be7 is more precise. Then it is important to realize that in the Spanish version of the Marshall Gambit White plays c2-c3 first. So after say 4.d3 Be7 5.0-0 0-0 Black only should play 6...d5 in case White plays 6.c3 or 6.Bb3. After 6.a4 and 6.Re1 Black has to find other strategies. One idea is to play ...Kh8; ...Ne8; and ...f5.
  

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Re: Two Knights, 4.d3 d5
Reply #1 - 10/31/09 at 17:17:46
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13.Ne5 has already been played before in the game Shanava-Lyell, EU-ch 2007 which White won. I do not see a real improvement for Black.

I you like an early ...d5 maybe you should wait until White has played c3: 4.d3 Bc5 5.c3 0-0 6.0-0 d5!?. This looks like a better version of the same idea.
  
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Two Knights, 4.d3 d5
10/31/09 at 15:34:47
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Hello everybody.
Recently I played OTB game:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d3 d5 5.ed Nxd5 6.0-0 Bc5 7.Re1 0-0 8.Nxe5 Qh4 9.Qf3 Nf6 10.Nxc6 Ng4 11.d4 Qxh2+ 12.Kf1 Bd6 and here I expected to see 13.Nxe7+ which leads to massive complications (see Pinski), however I faced a countersac 13.Ne5! Bxe5 14.de Nxe5 15.Rxe5 Qxe5 16.Nc3, found myself in rather passive position and lost quickly. This maneuvre looks like a safe way of obtaining comfortable edge for White after 4...d5(?!).
Does anybody have an idea whether Black could have played better?
  
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