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Poll closed Question: Who will win the Tal Memorial 2009?
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*** This poll has now closed ***


Vishy Anand    
  4 (10.8%)
Lev Aronian    
  3 (8.1%)
Magnus Carlsen    
  9 (24.3%)
Boris Gelfand    
  0 (0.0%)
Vasily Ivanchuk    
  1 (2.7%)
Vladimir Kramnik    
  18 (48.6%)
Petr Leko    
  0 (0.0%)
Alex Morozevich    
  1 (2.7%)
Ruslan Ponomariov    
  1 (2.7%)
Peter Svidler    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 37
« Last Modified by: Smyslov_Fan on: 11/10/09 at 04:16:33 »
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Tal Memorial 2009 (Read 15565 times)
Uruk
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #64 - 11/23/09 at 03:11:00
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What's comical is Kramnik repeating that "greatest ever" stuff at least three times.

I mean Ok man, we can see that. Let your performance speak by itself
(like Anand usually does btw.)
  
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Willempie
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #63 - 11/22/09 at 20:54:31
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Jupp53 wrote on 11/22/09 at 13:12:08:
Willempie wrote on 11/21/09 at 15:53:56:
But yes I think that five years from now you will have a better view on the relative status of the tournament.
Tournaments normally become big by tournament books of high quality. Exception is Hastings 1895 because it was the first with such a status. So the Tal Memorial 2009 will become an exceptional tournament if one of the participants writes an exceptional book about it. Else it will be a secret hint to good chess in three months.

Maybe. For a tournament to "stick, it often is the result (a clear win sticks, ie Karpov at Linares in the 90s or some of Fischer or Tal's wins where they ended winner with big margins), status (a candidate tournament will often be ranked higher than stronger tournaments in the same time) and the PR surrounding it (and that includes books, but also visibility for the public a national championship is usually of less interest to others).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #62 - 11/22/09 at 13:12:08
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Willempie wrote on 11/21/09 at 15:53:56:
But yes I think that five years from now you will have a better view on the relative status of the tournament.
Tournaments normally become big by tournament books of high quality. Exception is Hastings 1895 because it was the first with such a status. So the Tal Memorial 2009 will become an exceptional tournament if one of the participants writes an exceptional book about it. Else it will be a secret hint to good chess in three months.
  

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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #61 - 11/22/09 at 00:59:04
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funny this thread generated more posts at the conclusion of the tournament than during it.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #60 - 11/21/09 at 15:53:56
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F22 wrote on 11/21/09 at 07:37:29:
Willempie wrote on 11/20/09 at 22:38:00:
My point is that I made a joke about the statement and then get all kinds of bashing, because apparently I am bashing Kramnik.
But get real. Topalov didnt play (at the start still number one), Carlsen was ill, Kramnik was ill, Leko and Moro seemed completely out of shape and Anand also wasnt really up to par.


In the first part you complain that people call you a Kramnik basher and in the next part you start the Kramnik bashing!

Topalov not playing has little bearing, after all Botvinnik did not play in Zurich 1953 either. And if you want to talk about who was ill we might as well apply the same standard to AVRO. Capablanca had a stroke during the tournmament and Flohr could not play because the Nazis conquered the Czech republic and his family was under Nazi rule. The tournament conditions were horrible the players could not get any rest (every round was held in a different city so they had to travel with train) and this had a very serious impact on the older players

Right now Tal memorial 2009 has 2 world champions in its line up and with time this number will increase. So ten years later people will look back and say: "this tournament had 4 world champions in it!! And didn't Leko hold Kramnik to a draw in a WC match?". 

The same applies to the old soviet championhips and a couple of other tournaments (ie Corus 2008 was with Kramnik, Anand, Topalov and Carlsen/Aronian as a bonus) Wink
But yes I think that five years from now you will have a better view on the relative status of the tournament. Ie it could very well be that a Carlsen goes up the top, but it could also be that Leko's malperformance isnt an incident.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #59 - 11/21/09 at 14:51:11
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Lets not forget two of the ill players finished quite well  Wink and in every tournament someone is out of form.
  
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #58 - 11/21/09 at 07:37:29
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Willempie wrote on 11/20/09 at 22:38:00:
My point is that I made a joke about the statement and then get all kinds of bashing, because apparently I am bashing Kramnik.
But get real. Topalov didnt play (at the start still number one), Carlsen was ill, Kramnik was ill, Leko and Moro seemed completely out of shape and Anand also wasnt really up to par.


In the first part you complain that people call you a Kramnik basher and in the next part you start the Kramnik bashing!

Topalov not playing has little bearing, after all Botvinnik did not play in Zurich 1953 either. And if you want to talk about who was ill we might as well apply the same standard to AVRO. Capablanca had a stroke during the tournmament and Flohr could not play because the Nazis conquered the Czech republic and his family was under Nazi rule. The tournament conditions were horrible the players could not get any rest (every round was held in a different city so they had to travel with train) and this had a very serious impact on the older players

Right now Tal memorial 2009 has 2 world champions in its line up and with time this number will increase. So ten years later people will look back and say: "this tournament had 4 world champions in it!! And didn't Leko hold Kramnik to a draw in a WC match?". 
  
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #57 - 11/20/09 at 22:38:00
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/20/09 at 21:56:11:
So, you admit that there are no other tournament this year that were as strong as the Tal Memorial, despite both Linares and Nanjing boasting fewer players.

You also admit that Kramnik's public statements saying as much is not only not wrong but probably good for chess.

Which makes me wonder:  what was your point?

I would suggest that the examples I gave are equally strong.

My point is that I made a joke about the statement and then get all kinds of bashing, because apparently I am bashing Kramnik.
But get real. Topalov didnt play (at the start still number one), Carlsen was ill, Kramnik was ill, Leko and Moro seemed completely out of shape and Anand also wasnt really up to par.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #56 - 11/20/09 at 21:56:11
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So, you admit that there are no other tournaments this year as strong as the Tal Memorial, despite both Linares and Nanjing boasting fewer players.

You also admit that Kramnik's public statements saying as much is not only not wrong but probably good for chess.

Which makes me wonder:  what was your point?

(Edited for grammar. ~SF)
« Last Edit: 11/21/09 at 14:28:12 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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Willempie
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #55 - 11/20/09 at 21:22:04
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 11/20/09 at 20:29:56:
Let's ask flat out:

Willempie, what tournament in the last year was stronger?

I gave some examples which are pretty close. However there are two other points to consider: Firstly at least 3 players complained they were ill (Kramnik included). I am no expert but I think that would not increase their strength Wink
Secondly I am getting a bit bamboozled with the ratings. It seems they inflate quicker than the Bolivar. My bet is that if you have the exact same field next year it is suddenly a category higher.
Quote:
And,

What is wrong with Kramnik stating this was one of the strongest tournaments?

Nothing, and I didnt say there was anything wrong with it. I think the comment was a little over the top, but I would have said exactly the same (assuming I would end first Grin). You're not gonna win a strong tournament and then tell the press that it was just an ordinary tournament. That is both bad for yourself, but also bad for the sponsors and chess PR in general.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #54 - 11/20/09 at 20:29:56
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Let's ask flat out:

Willempie, what tournament in the last year was stronger?

And,

What is wrong with Kramnik stating this was one of the strongest tournaments?
  
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Willempie
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #53 - 11/20/09 at 20:00:35
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Antillian wrote on 11/20/09 at 14:46:40:
Enough with the Kramnik bashing by the usual suspects.

It is hard to dispute it was the strongest tournament of the year.  I think we should also be able to applaud a good tournament and a good performance even if our favourite guy did not win.

It was an excellent performance, but I would say that this year there were a couple of other strong tournaments (Nanjing or Linares for example). Plus the WC challenger was missing.
  

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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #52 - 11/20/09 at 16:55:30
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Personally I think Kramnik's performance was especially impressive considering he had 5 blacks out of the 9 rounds.

  
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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #51 - 11/20/09 at 14:46:40
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Enough with the Kramnik bashing by the usual suspects.

It is hard to dispute it was the strongest tournament of the year.  I think we should also be able to applaud a good tournament and a good performance even if our favourite guy did not win.
  

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Re: Tal Memorial 2009
Reply #50 - 11/20/09 at 14:42:16
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Whenever I win something I also claim it is the strongest competition ever. Just recently I beat one of the strongest dutch players around Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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