This topic has arisen in a new post, so I thought it may be useful to bump this thread.

I've played a corr game as black in this line last year (with Nf6)

i thinks white i a tiny better but enventualy draw.

Bibs wrote on 01/31/10 at 13:57:07:



I haven't spent a ton of time with the book, but was when browsing it at the World Open was convinced to buy it even though I already having Starting Out: The Scotch.  The organization and presentation seems much better and easier to follow.  In general I'm not a fan of a repertoire approach but the coverage seems pretty good and could always fill in other lines that I might like to play from other sources.   

Just wanted to chime in because it seems a nice little book.

Indeed this move is almost as much played as 7.Bc4 and it seems to have more win for White at master level. 7..Be6 is the most natural, the only normal move which keep the tension without allowing a worse pawn structure for the moment. From now, 8.Qg3 or 8.Be3 are 2 popular and succesful move. But I suspect it should still be ok for Black with good play, but I have to admit I did not check that move deeply yet.

Warning, I noticed a hole in one of the recommantions from Barsky. Because of that, a CC opponent supposed to be strong lost to me :

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 5.Nxc6 Qf6 6.Qf3!? (I bought the book myself mostly because I like the ideas under that move) 6..dxc6 (I think this move is equal with best play but 6..bxc6 is probably equal too but more umbalanced, so this is maybe a better winning try) 7.Bc4 Be6 (Barsky seems to prefer 7..Ne7 to Black but I have not studied that move, he says that Black will have a very long and laborious passive defense after Be6, and I quite agree but not because of his variation) Now he gives 8.Bxe6 Qxe6 9.Be3 Bb4+ 10.c3 Bd6 11.Nd2 0-0-0 12.0-0 Nf6 13.Bg5 "White has an excellent development and begins an operation for destroying his opponent's pawn-structure". I agree that White's moves seems to be very natural and at first sight we might just agree with him. His reference's game is Sulskis (2537) vs Svetushkin (2618) and this is the only game at master level. Black played 13..Kb8 and White managed to convert a slight advantage into a win.

Ok and here is the hole!:

13..Ng4! a nice tactical move with a forced sequence that end with an advantage to Black.

Here is my CC game:

[Corr.]
[Date "2010.04.16"]
[White "Timothy,Chan Wei Xuan"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2341"]
[BlackElo "2211"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 5.Nxc6 Qf6 6.Qf3 dxc6 7.Bc4 Be6 8.Bxe6 Qxe6 9.Be3 Bb4+ 10.c3 Bd6 11.Nd2 Nf6 12.O-O O-O-O 13.Bg5 Ng4 14.Bxd8 Nxh2 15.Qe3 Nxf1 16.Kxf1 Rxd8 17.Qxa7 b6 18.Re1 Qh6 19.Nf3 Qh1+ 20.Ke2 Qxg2 21.Rg1 Qh3 22.Rxg7 Qe6 23.Qa8+ Kd7 24.Qa4 h6 25.Rg1 b5 26.Qc2 Re8 27.Nd2 Kc8 28.c4 Bf4 0-1 

He lost on time in a clearly worse position.

I don't know where my opponent got his rating (he began in this website with this rating while I began with 1700) but it seems he has followed blindly the game, or the book. I believe most line with 6.Qf3 dxc6 are nice for White in corr game against a computer alone because of the long-terms advantages and the almost endings territory. But in that precise variation, the computer was useful for Black and would have been useful to White.

I would call 8.Bxe6 a "bad" move. More in the spirit of the opening is 8.Qxf6! Nxf6 9.Bxe6 fxe6 10.f3 with the desired queenless game with a structural advantage without the bishop pair for Black. Practice seems to confirm my thoughts, not much games but nice scores for White. Even GM Ni Hua (2704) has tried that line and won. I got myself that position as Black in another CC game and I think 10..e5 ! followed by a g5 is a good way to bind the kingside and it is the way I have played. The game was drawn and I used more my personnal feeling than computer here. I even think it might be dangerous to blindly play the endings in CC play with computer only. Here is the game:


[Corr.]
[Date "2009.12.31"]
[White "Nita,Catalin"]
[Black "ArKheiN"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[WhiteElo "2093"]
[BlackElo "2023"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 5.Nxc6 Qf6 6.Qf3 dxc6 7.Bc4 Be6 8.Qxf6 Nxf6 9.Bxe6 fxe6 10.f3 e5 11.Nd2 Ke7 12.Nb3 Bb6 13.Ke2 a5 14.a4 Rhg8 15.Bd2 g5 16.g4 h5 17.h3 h4 18.Rhd1 Ke6 19.Be1 Nd7 20.Rd3 Nc5 21.Nxc5+ Bxc5 22.Rad1 b6 23.Rd7 Bd6 24.Rh7 Rh8 25.Rxh8 Rxh8 26.Bd2 Be7 27.Be3 Rd8 28.Rxd8 Bxd8 29.Kd3 c5 30.Kc4 c6 31.b3 Kd7 32.Bd2 Be7 33.Bc1 Ke6 34.Bd2 Kd7 35.Kd3 Ke6 36.Kc4 Kd7 1/2-1/2 

It seems that the best strategy for Black in the bishop ending is to put pawns in the same color as the bishop, an opposition of the traditional rule, but here it's a form of fortress. I was a bit worried of the ideas with c3-b4 near the end and he could have try harder. It's ok to play something like this as Black in a CC game if you are happy with a draw. If not, that White idea gives headhaches. In an OTB game I would really not like to play the Black side of it. Technical defense is required even against a lower player just to end with a draw.

I hope my post will be useful to someone

arcee wrote on 05/28/10 at 10:06:22:


What?

Keano wrote on 05/27/10 at 14:52:50:


Yup, a correspondence game via chess.com (through facebook).  Just trying to get some pointers and see if anyone else has tried it 

Markovich wrote on 05/27/10 at 13:51:35:


Actually, I was thinking of targeting f7 after the exchange and then chasing the king to the queenside

Is this a correspondence game? Work it out for yourself - ignorance is bliss.

I agree.  Would Qe5+ be a good one?

Hi!  I just started playing this variation: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. Nxd4 exd4 5. Qxd4 c5

Any good suggestions on how white should continue?

PatzerNoster wrote on 05/06/10 at 09:31:46:


Yeah, of course, but how to demonstrate the advantage after 4...Nf6 is a vast question and one that I am not able to answer, nor do I have the time right now to delve into the line you propose.  The positions that arise from 4...Nf6 are quite difficult for both sides, and there are very few easy answers there, I think.

I received the book some days ago and now had a superficial look over the recommendations.

In the main line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 ed4: 4.Nd4: Nf6 5.Nc6: bc6: 6.e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 Nd5 8.c4 Ba6 9.b3 g6 10.f4 f6 11.ef6: Qe2: 12.Be2: Bb4+ 13.Bd2 Bd2:+ 14.Nd2: Nf4: 15.Rf1 Ne2: 16.Ke2: Kf7 17.Kd3 Rae8 18.g4 Barsky mentions 18. ... d6!? without further comment (the main game is won convincingly by white as black ignores his worst piece, the Ba6). However, there is a game Kristjansson-Pedersen, 2006 which was won convincingly by black, and after a short analysis with Rybka, I think white essentially struggles for a draw after 18. ... d6!
This is not too surprising, as the rooks combine better with the bishop than with the knight.

I have close to zero experience with the Scotch, but as I see many strong players play it regularly.
Does anybody have an idea how white can fight for an advantage in the 4. ... Nf6 mainline?

If there was no way, the Scotch would perhaps be as popular as the Vienna! 

Keano wrote on 02/01/10 at 11:18:52:


I think you're missing the point - repetition is the idea! It's probably not a particularly great format if you're a CC player or you have a great memory, since you only need to view it from a reference viewpoint, but if you're an OTB player, I think the format is dynamite. First, you can quickly assimilate what all of the main lines are, and get an idea of what's going on, what both sides generally aim to do, etc....then you get to expand your knowledge into sidelines and further review the main lines, then you get some complete games to sink your teeth into, increasing your understanding of the middlegames and endgames again! 

I can see your point a bit, but I think Chess Stars has done a great job with this format. 

I had a look in the last few days. My overall opinion is quite favióurable. The presentation is quite good, there are a lot of suggestions and it is shurly not a database dump. I took up the scotch after reading Collins excellent "Opening repertoire for the attacking player",, which was published some years ago. Now this is an excellent way to refresh the lines. 
Barsky spend quite a lot of space on several side lines (in my opinion a little bit to much-- I never played against 4....g6 or 4...Nxd5, even in blitz), and then moves forward to the lines with 4...Qh4 and 4...Bb4+, which are covered excellently. I like the concept with quick reperoitre and step by step, as you get an excellent overview after looking up the quick repertoire section.
Then he continues with the two mainlines. Against 1.e4 e5 2,Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Bc5 he proposes 5. Nxc6 Qf6 and then 6.Qf3. This variation is quite popular in the last few years and there are many fresh positions. also the presentation is quite nice. Maybe it would be nice, to have a "second " Variation against the mainline (say 6.Qd2).
Against the Mieses, he propsoes to Variations, 6.Bd3 and the main line with 6.e5. The line with 6.Bd3 i donot know, but I remenber Davis suggesting this line in his DVD about the scotch(Which is suitable for around 1700 Elo). The main line is covered quite nicely, however the Quick repertoire part is quite short, so in order to really play the line you have to look up the step by step part.

Overall a very good book and a must for everybody playing the scotch with white !

Blackburne wrote on 01/09/10 at 04:22:50:

As with the other Chess Stars books, each section is divided into "Quick Repertoire" (a basic overview), "Step by Step" (the main analysis) and "Illustrative Games" (50 in the book as a whole, lightly annotated). The analysis section is structured as variation trees, but there is quite a lot of explanation; I find the balance between analysis and explanation about right for my level (2000ish).

I do have a niggle with the book, although I suspect it matters rather more to me than to most people.  In the chapter headings, the introductory moves are uniformly given as 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 etc.  Very irritating albeit, of course, ultimately irrelevant to the material presented.

I haven't seen any reviews but I have just received a copy as a late Christmas present from a well-informed colleague (I work in London for a company based in Edinburgh, so the Scotch has a particular significance, given the history of its nomenclature).

To be honest, I had never been attracted to the Scotch with White but this is an appetizing titbit of a book - I was surprised by how slender it is, actually, but it does seem to cover most of the ground by adopting a fairly strict repertoire approach.

The principal exception is after 4...Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 where the main lines after 6.e5 Qe7 7.Qe2 is covered (7...Nd5 8.c4 Nb6 9.Nc3 and 8...Ba6 9.b3) but Barsky also offers up 6.Bd3 d5 7.e5!? which I for one had always considered dubious.  Barsky makes what looks at first glance (albeit no serious analysis) a decent case that it can be played as a slightly speculative pawn sac.

The philosophy of the repertoire is basically, 'look, the Spanish is probably better, but let's be honest, there are so many lines where you have to learn so much theory just to prove a minuscule advantage, is it really worth the candle?' (very much the same reason Kaufman proposed the Exchange Spanish in Chess Advantage in Black and White, but with the added benefit of avoiding the Berlin etc.).  For the same reason, this repertoire generally proposes White playing Nxc6 early on so that the positions have a similar feel to them.

Most obviously, this means that 4...Bc5 is met by an immediate 5.Nxc6 with the follow-up 5...Qf6 6.Qf3, just as McDonald proposed in his massively under-rated (imho) Starting Out:1.e4.

The book follows the now-familiar Chess Stars recipe of giving a 'Quick Repertoire' followed by a 'Step-by-Step' examination, and finally a few 'Complete Games' for each major line.

All in all, and again in the absence of any detailed consideration of the lines, it looks like a very useful primer for anybody thinking of taking up the Scotch.  As an occasional 1.e4 player myself, it's perfect.

Some years ago I did some work on the Neo-Mieses variation with Bd3, teaching it to a student who went on to be very successful with it against titled players. So I will be very interested to see what Barskij has to say there.

Nestor, can you give us some sense of the style of the book? Is it dense thickets of variations like an old Batsford monograph, or annotated games, or ...? I'm particularly interested to know whether there's a good balance of analysis and conceptual explanation. If there is (by which I mean, enough conceptual explanation where that's appropriate), I might get the book for a student of mine.

I ordered a copy of this book yesterday, but I'm in the states. I'll let everyone know what I think of it soon.

I've had an e-mail from NIC that they've got it in stock - so mainland Europe might get it in time for Christmas?!

TonyRo wrote on 12/09/09 at 13:46:30:


Funny enough, the book is not even listed on Chess Stars website. I wonder what else they are covertly working on.

I can't find any games by Vladimir Barsky in chessbase or on chessgames. Does he go by a different name?

For us that live in the States, that pretty much guarantees that we're not getting the book in that week before Christmas, which is probably what Mark was referring to.

I'm curious as to what will be covered after 4...Bc5 5. Nxc6 Qf6 - 6. Qf3!? or the normal 6. Qd2.

That's quite exciting, thanks very much for the news! It's funny that no one had heard about this book, and Chess Stars beat Everyman, even though Everyman's book by Dembo has been announced for a while. 

According to german distributor Niggemann (www.schachversand.de)
a new book from chess-stars will be out before chrismas
(so far no information on www.chess-stars.com)

The Scotch Game for White   by IM Vladimir Barsky

december 18th 2009,  196 pages,  ~24 €

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4
1   4...Nxd4; 4...Nge7; 4...d5
2   4...g6; 4...d6
3   4...Qh4 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Be2
4   4...Bc5 5.Nxc6
5   4...Bb4+ 5.c3
6   4...Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.Bd3
7   4...Nf6 5.Nxc6 bxc6 6.e5

each chapter with: 1 Quick repertoire 2 Step by Step 3 Complete Games
At Niggemann there´s a PDF download (only TOC and preface) 

tracke