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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C40: New move in the Latvian (Read 164535 times)
Korch
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #42 - 01/01/10 at 21:42:08
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:18:26:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 20:47:18:
On 13.b3 Black probably should play 13...Bd6 (making white to castle king side) 14.0-0 h5 (planning to weaken king side with h4-h3) 15.f5 (getting more space and making black bishop more passive) Bc8 16.Nc4 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rhe8 I think that this position could be playable for Black as it`s not so easy to find active plan for White while Black has plan to move  h-pawn up to h3 with Kb8(a8) Bb7 to follow.




Hmm, all very suspicious. You know, Rybka3, I don't like ending after 15.Nc4 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Bg4 17.Na5+ Kb6 18.Qc4 Qxc4 19.Nxc4+ Kb7 20.h3 and Na5+, many isolated Black pawns, especially in CC.

I think I will turn back to 3..Nf6


In my opinion after 15.Nc4 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Bg4 17.Na5+ Kb6 18.Qc4 Qxc4 19.Nxc4+ Kb7 20.h3 Be6 21.Na5+ Kc8 22.Nc6 Rd6 23.Ne5 h4! (making weak squares on White king side pawn structure & planning to move Rook on h5 after 24.Ng6) Black has good compensation for pawn - 2 bishops + better development and more active pieces.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #41 - 01/01/10 at 21:40:54
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Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.
  
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Korch
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #40 - 01/01/10 at 21:24:16
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:14:46:
What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.

13.b4 was the first move I looked in that position. After 13...Qd7 14.0-0 h5 15.f5 (15.Rb1 h4) Bf7 16.Rb1 h4 17.h3 (allowing h3 seems to to be the best idea) Bh5 18.Qe1 Bd6 19.Nc4 Bg3 20. Qe3 Qd4 21.Na5+ Ka8 22.Qxd4 Rxd4 Black should have a good compensation for pawn.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #39 - 01/01/10 at 21:18:26
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 20:47:18:
On 13.b3 Black probably should play 13...Bd6 (making white to castle king side) 14.0-0 h5 (planning to weaken king side with h4-h3) 15.f5 (getting more space and making black bishop more passive) Bc8 16.Nc4 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rhe8 I think that this position could be playable for Black as it`s not so easy to find active plan for White while Black has plan to move  h-pawn up to h3 with Kb8(a8) Bb7 to follow.




Hmm, all very suspicious. You know, Rybka3, I don't like ending after 15.Nc4 Bc5+ 16.Kh1 Bg4 17.Na5+ Kb6 18.Qc4 Qxc4 19.Nxc4+ Kb7 20.h3 and Na5+, many isolated Black pawns, especially in CC.

I think I will turn back to 3..Nf6
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #38 - 01/01/10 at 21:14:46
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What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.
  
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Korch
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #37 - 01/01/10 at 20:47:18
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On 13.b3 Black probably should play 13...Bd6 (making white to castle king side) 14.0-0 h5 (planning to weaken king side with h4-h3) 15.f5 (getting more space and making black bishop more passive) Bc8 16.Nc4 Bc5+ 17.Kh1 Rhe8 I think that this position could be playable for Black as it`s not so easy to find active plan for White while Black has plan to move  h-pawn up to h3 with Kb8(a8) Bb7 to follow.


  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #36 - 01/01/10 at 20:23:00
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:58:45:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:06:04:
AMM

May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?
   


Je,je,je. In my notes from a game vs. Ardila ( cited above ) I had already analyzed this !!; the position is the same, but arises from 7.Ncxd5 Be6 8.Bc4 Na6 and now I saw 9.Bxa6 Bxd5? 10.Nxd5 Qxd5 11.c4! ( see the Base I sent you ).

Ops, it seems a hard knockout !?; thus 6..d5 is finally dubtious as well. The position after yours 9..bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4! is playable, but a bit nasy as Black, don't?. White has a slow development after 11..exf3 12.Qxf3 Rd8 13.0-0 but Black has a pawn down and terrible queenside structure!.

Well, we are murdering the Gambit !? Sad


Well 11....exf3 is definitely not what I would like to play as Black. At the moment I`m exploring position after 11...0-0-0 12.Qe2 Kb7 in which despite of horrible pawn structure Black seems to have some compensation due to bishop pair and better development. 13.b3 (with Bb2 and 0-0-0 to follow) looks like to be the most troublesome for Black and I`m trying to find some good plan to encounter it.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #35 - 01/01/10 at 19:58:45
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 19:06:04:
AMM

May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?
   


Je,je,je. In my notes from a game vs. Ardila ( cited above ) I had already analyzed this !!; the position is the same, but arises from 7.Ncxd5 Be6 8.Bc4 Na6 and now I saw 9.Bxa6 Bxd5? 10.Nxd5 Qxd5 11.c4! ( see the Base I sent you ).

Ops, it seems a hard knockout !?; thus 6..d5 is finally dubtious as well. The position after yours 9..bxa6 10.Ne3 Nf6 11.f4! is playable, but a bit nasty as Black, don't?. White has a slow development after 11..exf3 12.Qxf3 Rd8 13.0-0 but Black has a pawn down and terrible queenside structure!.

Well, we are murdering the Gambit !? Sad
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #34 - 01/01/10 at 19:06:04
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AMM

May I ask your opinion about position after 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. Bxa6 bxa6 10. Ne3 Nf6 11. f4 ? What would you suggest for Black?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #33 - 01/01/10 at 19:02:17
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 18:49:58:
Yes, indeed!?, sorry, 12..Nf6 is possible; anyway 12..Qg6 13.Bb2 Nf6 (or 12..Nf6 13.Bb2 Qg6) 14.Be2 Rhf8 15.Nf4 Qf7 16.Qe2 with a very small plus.


12...Nf6 13.Bb2 Bxe3 14.fxe3 Qxc4 should be OK for Black


AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 18:49:58:

Kosten think 6..Nc6 is the most correct but after 7.d5 Ne5 8.0-0 Nxc4 9.Bxc4 Black had many problems lately with 9..Qg6 or 9..Be7, so I think retrogade 6..Qd8 or semi-unknown 6..Ne7 with idea ..d5 are better


I agree that 6...Qd8 seems to be the best for Black as 6...Nc6 and 6...Ne7 seems to be at least suspicious. But 6...Qd8 leads to positions with at least small plus for White.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #32 - 01/01/10 at 18:49:58
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( from Korch )

AMM
 

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. b3 Bc5 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne3 12. bxc4

12...Nf6 is possible because Queen is on f7.

About 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 I agree that 8...Qg4 seems to be the best attempt for Black. Personally I`m more worried about  3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 line.


Yes, indeed!?, sorry, 12..Nf6 is possible; anyway 12..Qg6 13.Bb2 Nf6 (or 12..Nf6 13.Bb2 Qg6) 14.Be2 Rhf8 15.Nf4 Qf7 16.Qe2 with a very small plus.

Also I'm a bit afraid on 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2.

Kosten think 6..Nc6 is the most correct but after 7.d5 Ne5 8.0-0 Nxc4 9.Bxc4 Black had many problems lately with 9..Qg6 or 9..Be7, so I think retrogade 6..Qd8 or semi-unknown 6..Ne7 with idea ..d5 are better
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #31 - 01/01/10 at 18:07:04
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Rebel-Yell wrote on 01/01/10 at 17:40:37:
How does black play after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 ?


See my previous answer.

I am not sure on 7..Be7 and I assume Black must to play classical old line 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 and now 8..Qg4!?.

Amateur David Zimbeck at http://www.zimbeckchess.com/chess_site_006.htm suggest 8..Nc6 9.Bd3 Qe6+!? 10.Be3 Qg4!?. The point of this is avoiding the "e" file for the Queen in the Main line 9..Qg4 10.Qe3+!, but all this is no relevant so White has previously 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! preparing threats to "c7", so 9..Qe6+ 10.Be3 Qd7 it doesn't look especially tempting. Even according Tony Kosten in "Latvian gambit lives!" (2001) come to being the refutation of 8..Nc6
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #30 - 01/01/10 at 17:49:15
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Rebel-Yell wrote on 01/01/10 at 17:40:37:
How does black play after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 ?

Read previous post of AMM.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #29 - 01/01/10 at 17:48:02
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 15:18:43:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:52:04:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:45:37:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...

After 12...Nf6 I don`t think that White pieces are too well placed to exploit it.



12..Nf6 is impossible, so the Queen is on "f6", so perhaps 12..Qg6 13.Rb1 (or 13.Bb2) then -both- 13..Nf6 etc.


                    And what's about Classical Main line with 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3  ?. In this key position:


                    1a) 8..Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! threating on "c7" was already pointed by Kosten. In his book there are some games with 10..Rc8, 10..0-0-0 and 10..Kd8 all dubtious for Black, but I remember strong CC player Peter Leisebein suggested 10..d5!?; now "natural" 11.Nxc7+?! Kd7 etc. had success as Black in three games, but finally was refuted in a good way in Melchor-Zielinski, corr.,LADAC thema (sf.), 2008/09 with 11.Bd3! etc. 
 
                    1b) 8..Nf6 has been totally discredited by 9.Ne3! ( instead less clear and more known 9.Bd3 ) in later games. White decides to make "g4" unavailable for exchange the Queens, and Black play is totally passive. There are many games with this moves sequence
 
                    1c) 8..Qg4!? is less known and played, buy It was reccomended by myself. Kosten only analyzes 9.Qf2 ( I don't think exchanging Queens is good for White ) 9..Nf6 10.Be2 and now instead of Kosten's 10..Qe6?! I suggest 10..Qg6!?; In this order, THERE ARE NOT ANY GAME still played ( only traspositions, so they are very important ! ). Some examples:
 
                     11.Bd3 Qh5 12.0-0 Be7 (or 12..Nc6) 

                   *13.Ne2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Nf4 Qe8 (15..Qf7) = Fleischmann-Cano, corr., 1970 by trasposition

                   *13.Be3 0-0 14.h3 (14.Qg3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7=) 14..Nc6 15.Qg3 Be6 = Gaard-Müller, corr., 1988/89 by trasposition 

                   *13.Bf4 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 16.Ne3 White has more space, but Black is solid (Kosten)-- Bergsma-Wijnands, Rotterdam, 1939 by trasposition 1/2-1/2 in 60 moves)

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Qe3 Bd7 16.Rae1 Rae8 17.Ne2 1/2-1/2 Hewitt-Thornton, 1998, also by trasposition.

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 followed by ..Rae8 = Knostenbergs-Melchor, corr., 2001/02 (1/2-1/2 in 31 moves)

                    White can try15.Ne3 or Qg3, but they may be met by15..d5.

                    So perhaps White has to try for an improvement earlier. Ideas?, maybe 13.Nb5!?; 11.Ne3!?


                    Last times many players - as I myself - have tested 7..Be7!? to re-evaluate whole variation. Although we have got nice positions after 8.fxe4 Nh6! - or 8..Nc6 and 9..Nh6 -, I'm not sure about it if White plays 8.Nxe4 or 8.Ne3!?


AMM 

After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. Nc4 fxe4 5. Nc3 Qf7 6. Ne3 d5 7. Nexd5 Be6 8. Bc4 Na6 9. b3 Bc5 10. O-O O-O 11. Ne3 12. bxc4

12...Nf6 is possible because Queen is on f7.

About 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 I agree that 8...Qg4 seems to be the best attempt for Black. Personally I`m more worried about  3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Be2 line.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #28 - 01/01/10 at 17:40:37
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How does black play after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 ?
  
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