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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C40: New move in the Latvian (Read 164491 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #57 - 01/05/10 at 20:22:34
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But what is your rating and your opposition?

OTB in tournament time I always had promising positions and almost won against a GM with it (I was winning but I began to play bad and I lost). I think the BDG may be playable as a main weapon from beginner to something like 2500 (but in every cases, more effective as a surprise) while I think for the Latvian it should be playable from beginner to 2300 (still as a surprise)The less a system is sound, the less it is playable OTB when you get higher in rated opposition.
  
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Korch
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #56 - 01/05/10 at 18:02:12
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ArKheiN When I use Latvian in OTB most of my opponent`s lack knowledge to get such a good positions for White. Even some Latvian experts (playing in Latvian thematic tournaments in CC) are not always able to create serious problems for Black.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #55 - 01/05/10 at 09:14:58
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I like gambits in general but I really don't understand why players likes the Latvian gambit when the main lines gives all sort of problems to Black quickly. I always said that the Latvian gambit is for masochists (I will make people smiling because I am an advocate of the BDG and Schliemann) trying in the end to survive with a pawn down where we can read from the Latvian theoricians of the forum something like"Black have some chances to have a draw", "Black have a quite difficult position but might survive" "the position is not so bad" etc etc. I totally understand the pleasure of getting wild positions, but not the pleasure of fighting for a draw after the small and avoided storm, for example the line with 4.Nc4 fxe4 5.Nc3 Qg6 6. d3 Bb4 7.dxe4 where in the zimberbeck web site I can read "with some chances to draw in an opposite colored bishop game" which is still not an opposite bishop ending (but the draw is not impossible indeed). If I could choose to play that ending "chances to draw with Black" in 20 games, I would play White because the fun and the chance for victory would be in my side, fun for the Black side is what I call masochism here.

Even something like the Riga variation of the Spanish is more fun to me: it has a bad reputation as well, not very well known, can be very wild, and the "inferiors endings" are still quite fun to play. But even here I would say that someone who would always play the Riga is slightly masochist.

Markovitch might tell me that in my Schliemann I can get a masochist ending as well and I agree with him but strangely, that good line for White is still very underground officially and I get it as Black only about 10% but I would probably not continue to play the Schliemann if I got it 50% of the time.
  
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Korch
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #54 - 01/04/10 at 18:54:56
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AMM wrote on 01/04/10 at 00:48:34:
Korch

In the above line after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 if this last move is not laudable, why not 4..Nc6 ?.


Because of 5.Nc3 and after 5...Nxe5 6.Nd5 White should win.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #53 - 01/04/10 at 00:48:34
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Korch

In the above line after 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 if this last move is not laudable, why not 4..Nc6 ?.

In the line 7.Ng4 Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 etc., I told 13...0-0-0 etc. is a bit better. What does it matter if Black has a pawn down ?, anyway is usual in other many LG lines. For instance I would get ready to fight a Rook ending in CC game with this variation ( of course, with Nalimov Tablebases !! ).

If not, Latvian gambit is "refuted" and so, not recccomendable; there many Main lines wherever White get advantage in the opening. Fortunately any player look Rybka&friends in an OTB game, moreover we have -2300 ELO FIDE and we can play the middle game and maybe even win ! ( as in the rest of openings ).

So LG is already playable in OTB ..., clearly NOT in any "writting" forum !?   
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #52 - 01/03/10 at 15:30:23
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AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 04:49:10:
Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:40:54:
Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.


Conquistador:

What's about? 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4 ( you know, Bucker, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf ) 7..Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 (N) 9.Re1 d5 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Rxe4+ Be6 12.Qxd5 Td8 etc. with a nice Black counterplay; perhaps better 11.Qxd5 Qxd5 12.Bxd5 Bf5! 13.Bxe4 0-0-0 14.Bxf5+ Nxf5 15.Bg5 Be7 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc3 Nc6 I'm not especially worried on this "semi-ending"


Unfortunately in my opinion White has extra pawn without compensation for Black after

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 4. Bc4 Qe7 5. d4 Nc6 6. O-O fxe4 7. Ng4 Nxg4 8. Qxg4 Nxd4 9. Re1 d5 10. Qh5+ Qf7 11. Qxd5 Qxd5 12. Bxd5 Bf5 13. Bxe4 Kf7 14. Bxf5 Nxf5 15. c3! (15.Bg5 Nd4!) Sad

Please somebody find something for Black after 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 4. Bc4 Qe7 5. d4 Nc6 6. O-O fxe4 7. Ng4 or 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 .......
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #51 - 01/02/10 at 19:11:35
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Korch wrote on 01/02/10 at 16:36:12:
AMM
The thing I really dislike in 3...Nf6 is simple 4.exf5.  Suggestions of theory in this line?


I think option 3..Nf6 4.exf5 is quite well analyzed in the article of Bücker at http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss45.pdf and White even with a pawn down has great posibilities on drawing in the ending, better when disappears the danger exchanging Queens so quickly.

The move 4.Bc4 creates more problems for the second player, although, as we have seen, it must play the accurate moves every instant. Even I have read in some places true refutation are 3.d4 or 3.Nc3  !!

We have to finish the debate on Latvian, ... we bored many readers who don't know more current Theory. I still believe is playable, but of course Black faces great problems at the Main variations.

People ONLY have success with it because of opponent unfamiliarity; players who adopt it tend to specialise in it so one advantage they have is that they are well-versed in an opening that white may not know quite so well

I think it still matters in correspondence because you can look up the book moves in a database but you won't really have a feel for the positions you are likely to face in OTB. A seasoned Latvian Gambit campaigner will find themselves in positions in which they feel comfortable.
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #50 - 01/02/10 at 16:36:12
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AMM
The thing I really dislike in 3...Nf6 is simple 4.exf5.  Suggestions of theory in this line?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #49 - 01/02/10 at 13:59:28
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Korch wrote on 01/02/10 at 09:24:37:
AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 03:39:29:
Korch:

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10.Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? as you points or better 11.Ne3!.

Thus 7..Be7 in the Krantz's spirit 8.fxe4 Nh6! (and 8..Ng4) of 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 (9..Ng4!) without the problems on 9.e5; but as you know I have some problems after:

a) 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ etc ( Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07 and Özoguz-Indricans, email ICCF webserver, 2007 ). Maybe 8..Nf6!? preparing quick castle is best; after 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Bd3 Qf7 (12..Qe8!?) 13.c3 the position is exactly the same (!) than 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9. Ne3 Nc6 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Bd3 Qf7 12.c3 but with an extra and useful tempo in Black's game!; White has any relevant adventage. Perhaps 9.Be2 is more precise.

b) 8.Nxe4! seems best. I don't know how improve Black's play f.i. after 8..Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.c3 with a Black pawn down in a simple position, and 8..Nh6?! of Ardila-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema sf., 2008 idea is irrelevant here, so White's pawn on f3 abort any ..Ng4 counterplay


On 8.Nxe4 probably the best for Black is 8...d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 (making pressure on d4 and b2) 10.Nc3 (10.Ng5 Nc6 11.Ngf7 Nxe5 12.Nxh8 Nc4 seems to be not so bad for Black) Nf6 with reasonable play for Black. Look at the game (Ricard, JL. Deneuville, C.,cr VI World Ch. sf. A e-mail 2008 (1-0)) - despite of result it seems to me that Black had playable position.

After 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bd2 (Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07) Qh4+ 12.Qxh4 Bxh4+ 13.g3 Bf6 Black seems to be OK.




Korch, I agree with you in 8.Ne3 exf3 ( or 8..Nf6 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 ) 9.Qxf3 etc., but whats about? 8.Nxe4 d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 10.Nc3 Nf6 ( Ricard, JL. Deneuville, C.,cr VI World Ch. sf. A e-mail 2008 ) 11.Be2 c5 12.dxc5 Qxc5 13.Bf4 d4 14.Ne4 Nxe4 15.fxe4 etc.

As I told, perhaps 3..Nf6 and the line pointed above with 8..Nxd4 is possible; anyway 3.Nxe5 Qf6 and now 4.d4 or 4.Nc4 has some "holes" as Black !?  
« Last Edit: 01/02/10 at 16:44:23 by AMM »  
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Korch
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #48 - 01/02/10 at 09:24:37
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AMM wrote on 01/02/10 at 03:39:29:
Korch:

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10.Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? as you points or better 11.Ne3!.

Thus 7..Be7 in the Krantz's spirit 8.fxe4 Nh6! (and 8..Ng4) of 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 (9..Ng4!) without the problems on 9.e5; but as you know I have some problems after:

a) 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ etc ( Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07 and Özoguz-Indricans, email ICCF webserver, 2007 ). Maybe 8..Nf6!? preparing quick castle is best; after 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Bd3 Qf7 (12..Qe8!?) 13.c3 the position is exactly the same (!) than 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9. Ne3 Nc6 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Bd3 Qf7 12.c3 but with an extra and useful tempo in Black's game!; White has any relevant adventage. Perhaps 9.Be2 is more precise.

b) 8.Nxe4! seems best. I don't know how improve Black's play f.i. after 8..Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.c3 with a Black pawn down in a simple position, and 8..Nh6?! of Ardila-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema sf., 2008 idea is irrelevant here, so White's pawn on f3 abort any ..Ng4 counterplay


On 8.Nxe4 probably the best for Black is 8...d5 9.Ne5 Qb6 (making pressure on d4 and b2) 10.Nc3 (10.Ng5 Nc6 11.Ngf7 Nxe5 12.Nxh8 Nc4 seems to be not so bad for Black) Nf6 with reasonable play for Black. Look at the game (Ricard, JL. Deneuville, C.,cr VI World Ch. sf. A e-mail 2008 (1-0)) - despite of result it seems to me that Black had playable position.

After 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ Kd8 11.Bd2 (Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07) Qh4+ 12.Qxh4 Bxh4+ 13.g3 Bf6 Black seems to be OK.







  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #47 - 01/02/10 at 04:49:10
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:40:54:
Here is the breakdown for 3...Nf6

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Nf6 4.Bc4 Qe7 5.d4 Nc6 6.0-0 fxe4 (6...Nxe5 7.dxe5 Qxe5 [7...Nxe4 8.Nc3!] 8.exf5 Qxf5 9.Nc3 Kh8 10.Bd3 Qh5 11.Qxh5 Nxh5 12.Bg5+ Be7 13.Bxe7+ Kxe7 14.Rfe1+ Kd8 15.Nd5 g6 16.g4 Ng7 17.Re3 c6 18.Nf6 Ne6 19.Rf1 h5 20.g5 Nxg5 21.f4 Nf7 22.Rfe1 Nd6 23.Rg3 h4 24.Rxg6 b5 25.Ng4 Ne8 26.Ne5 Rf8 27.Rh6 Bb7 28.Rxh4 Nf6 29.Ng6 Rg8 30.f5 Kc7 31.Re7 and black is in trouble in the endgame, I think this game shows the problems black faces) 7.Ng4! and black is in trouble.


Conquistador:

What's about? 6.0-0 fxe4 7.Ng4 ( you know, Bucker, http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kaiss46.pdf ) 7..Nxg4 8.Qxg4 Nxd4 (N) 9.Re1 d5 10.Qh5+ Qf7 11.Rxe4+ Be6 12.Qxd5 Td8 etc. with a nice Black counterplay; perhaps better 11.Qxd5 Qxd5 12.Bxd5 Bf5! 13.Bxe4 0-0-0 14.Bxf5+ Nxf5 15.Bg5 Be7 16.Bxe7 Nxe7 17.Nc3 Nc6 I'm not especially worried on this "semi-ending"
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #46 - 01/02/10 at 03:39:29
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Korch:

3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10.Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? as you points or better 11.Ne3!.

Thus 7..Be7 in the Krantz's spirit 8.fxe4 Nh6! (and 8..Ng4) of 7..Nf6 8.fxe4 Be7 (9..Ng4!) without the problems on 9.e5; but as you know I have some problems after:

a) 8.Ne3 exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6 10.Qh5+ etc ( Carlsen-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema prel., 2006-07 and Özoguz-Indricans, email ICCF webserver, 2007 ). Maybe 8..Nf6!? preparing quick castle is best; after 9.Bc4 exf3 10.Qxf3 Nc6 11.Nb5 Kd8 12.Bd3 Qf7 (12..Qe8!?) 13.c3 the position is exactly the same (!) than 7..exf3 8.Qxf3 Nf6 9. Ne3 Nc6 10.Nb5 Kd8 11.Bd3 Qf7 12.c3 but with an extra and useful tempo in Black's game!; White has any relevant adventage. Perhaps 9.Be2 is more precise.

b) 8.Nxe4! seems best. I don't know how improve Black's play f.i. after 8..Nf6 9.Nxf6+ Qxf6 10.c3 with a Black pawn down in a simple position, and 8..Nh6?! of Ardila-Melchor, corr. LADAC thema sf., 2008 idea is irrelevant here, so White's pawn on f3 abort any ..Ng4 counterplay
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #45 - 01/02/10 at 01:21:18
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AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 15:18:43:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:52:04:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:45:37:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:32:42:
AMM wrote on 01/01/10 at 14:26:55:
Korch,

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 f5 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.Nc4 Qf6 5.Nc3 Qf7 6.Ne3 d5!? 7.Nexd5 Be6 (instead "Conquistador" 7..c6) and now Bucker points after 8.Bc4 Na6 9.b3!? "it might be difficult for Black to achieve full compensation" ...

After 9...Bc5 10.0-0 0-0-0 11.Bb2 Bd4 12.Ne3 Nc5 Black`s position seems to be not so bad.


11.Ne3 Bxc4 12.bxc4!? is not a bit risky with "b" open file? ...

After 12...Nf6 I don`t think that White pieces are too well placed to exploit it.



12..Nf6 is impossible, so the Queen is on "f6", so perhaps 12..Qg6 13.Rb1 (or 13.Bb2) then -both- 13..Nf6 etc.


                    And what's about Classical Main line with 3.Nxe5 Qf6 4.d4 d6 5.Nc4 fxe4 6.Nc3 Qg6 7.f3 exf3 8.Qxf3  ?. In this key position:


                    1a) 8..Nc6 9.Nb5! Bg4 10.Qc3! threating on "c7" was already pointed by Kosten. In his book there are some games with 10..Rc8, 10..0-0-0 and 10..Kd8 all dubtious for Black, but I remember strong CC player Peter Leisebein suggested 10..d5!?; now "natural" 11.Nxc7+?! Kd7 etc. had success as Black in three games, but finally was refuted in a good way in Melchor-Zielinski, corr.,LADAC thema (sf.), 2008/09 with 11.Bd3! etc. 
 
                    1b) 8..Nf6 has been totally discredited by 9.Ne3! ( instead less clear and more known 9.Bd3 ) in later games. White decides to make "g4" unavailable for exchange the Queens, and Black play is totally passive. There are many games with this moves sequence
 
                    1c) 8..Qg4!? is less known and played, buy It was reccomended by myself. Kosten only analyzes 9.Qf2 ( I don't think exchanging Queens is good for White ) 9..Nf6 10.Be2 and now instead of Kosten's 10..Qe6?! I suggest 10..Qg6!?; In this order, THERE ARE NOT ANY GAME still played ( only traspositions, so they are very important ! ). Some examples:
 
                     11.Bd3 Qh5 12.0-0 Be7 (or 12..Nc6) 

                   *13.Ne2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Nf4 Qe8 (15..Qf7) = Fleischmann-Cano, corr., 1970 by trasposition

                   *13.Be3 0-0 14.h3 (14.Qg3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7=) 14..Nc6 15.Qg3 Be6 = Gaard-Müller, corr., 1988/89 by trasposition 

                   *13.Bf4 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 16.Ne3 White has more space, but Black is solid (Kosten)-- Bergsma-Wijnands, Rotterdam, 1939 by trasposition 1/2-1/2 in 60 moves)

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Qe3 Bd7 16.Rae1 Rae8 17.Ne2 1/2-1/2 Hewitt-Thornton, 1998, also by trasposition.

                   *13.Bd2 0-0 14.h3 Nc6 15.Rae1 Bd7 followed by ..Rae8 = Knostenbergs-Melchor, corr., 2001/02 (1/2-1/2 in 31 moves)

                    White can try15.Ne3 or Qg3, but they may be met by15..d5.

                    So perhaps White has to try for an improvement earlier. Ideas?, maybe 13.Nb5!?; 11.Ne3!?


                    Last times many players - as I myself - have tested 7..Be7!? to re-evaluate whole variation. Although we have got nice positions after 8.fxe4 Nh6! - or 8..Nc6 and 9..Nh6 -, I'm not sure about it if White plays 8.Nxe4 or 8.Ne3!?


You know - position after 7...exf3 8.Qxf3 Qg4 9.Qf2 Nf6 10. Be2 Qg6 11.Nb5!? Na6 12.0-0 Be7 13.Bd3 Qh5 14.Qe1 seems really bad for black.

Maybe it`s worth to check out 7...Be7 line. As I understand after 8.fxe4 Nh6 Black is OK? Then on  8.Ne3 maybe Black can try 8...exf3 9.Qxf3 Qf6!? Only don`t know what to play on 8.Nxe4.... Your thoughts?
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #44 - 01/01/10 at 21:48:02
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Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:42:28:
Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:24:16:
Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:14:46:
What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.

13.b4 was the first move I looked in that position. After 13...Qf7 14.0-0 h5 15.f5 (15.Rb1 h4) Bf7 16.Rb1 h4 17.h3 (allowing h3 seems to to be the best idea) Bh5 18.Qe1 Bd6 19.Nc4 Bg3 20. Qe3 Qd4 21.Na5+ Ka8 22.Qxd4 Rxd4 Black should have a good compensation for pawn.

Wait a minute, isn't the queen already on f7 so 13...Qf7 is not possible?

I did mean 13....Qd7
  
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Re: New move in the Latvian
Reply #43 - 01/01/10 at 21:42:28
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Korch wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:24:16:
Conquistador wrote on 01/01/10 at 21:14:46:
What about 13.b4!? intending to blast open the queenside with b5?  This looks devastating with Rb1 and the queen can rejoin the attack.

13.b4 was the first move I looked in that position. After 13...Qf7 14.0-0 h5 15.f5 (15.Rb1 h4) Bf7 16.Rb1 h4 17.h3 (allowing h3 seems to to be the best idea) Bh5 18.Qe1 Bd6 19.Nc4 Bg3 20. Qe3 Qd4 21.Na5+ Ka8 22.Qxd4 Rxd4 Black should have a good compensation for pawn.

Wait a minute, isn't the queen already on f7 so 13...Qf7 is not possible?
  
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