ChessPub Forum - Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4

Schaakhamster

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Re: Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4
Reply #6 - 01/06/10 at 18:42:30

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Matemax wrote on 01/06/10 at 17:59:11:

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line A: Well exchanging queens is a big no-no . Chesspub gives 15. ... Qc7 =/unclear, I believe, but my impression is that after 16. Qf3 white is somewhat better. I'm not completly convinced that black has to play exd3 because there is not a lot to be gained from that in comparrison with normal 2K lines.

Following is an interesting game with 16.Qf3 where Black only lost due to a bad blunder on move 43 (White immediately won with a double attack).

[Event "Seefeld Open 14th"]
[Site "Seefeld"]
[Date "2003.09.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Sax, Gyula"]
[Black "Pilz, Dieter"]
[WhiteElo "2521"]
[BlackElo "2312"]
[ECO "C59"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ne5 Qd4 11.f4 Bc5 12.Rf1 Bb6 13.c3 Qd6 14.d4 exd3 15.Qxd3 Qc7 16.Qf3 Bd7 17.Nd2 O-O 18.b4 Nb7 19.Ndc4 Nd6 20.Nxb6 axb6 21.Nxd7 Qxd7 22.Kf2 Rfe8 23.Kg1 b5 24.Bd3 Nde4 25.Bc2 c5 26.bxc5 Qc7 27.Be3 Nxc3 28.Kh1 Rad8 29.Bg1 Ne2 30.Bf2 Nd4 31.Qc3 Nxc2 32.Qxc2 Ne4 33.Be3 Qc6 34.f5 Nd2 35.Rfe1 Ne4 36.Rac1 Rd5 37.f6 Nxf6 38.Bg1 Red8 39.Re2 Nd7 40.Qe4 Nb8 41.Qf3 Rd3 42.Qg4 Na6 43.Re7 Nc7 44.Qf4 Ne8 45.Qxf7+ Kh7 46.Re6 Qd7 47.Qg6+ 1-0

When I first looked at the game I was surprised that White isn't +/- after move 23, when his king goes back to safety, but interestingly the "knight pair" proves to be dominant to the two bishops:

Position after 23.Kg1 - on the first sight it looks as if White is simply a pawn up with the two bishops. But following the game one recognizes that Black has enough compensation and dominating knights!

White seems to be mistaking by exchanging of his rather active knights for relatively ineffective black bishops (the one on b6 looks nice but isn't doing much for the moment and certaintly isn't running away). Perhaps white should devellop his bishop on move 20 instead and try to castle long. Black doesn't seem to be able to wip up an attack fast enough to benefit from this.

Interesting game, really feeling bad for the black player because he really played well and missed the chance to take something from a legend.

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Matemax

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Re: Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4
Reply #5 - 01/06/10 at 17:59:11

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Quote:

line A: Well exchanging queens is a big no-no . Chesspub gives 15. ... Qc7 =/unclear, I believe, but my impression is that after 16. Qf3 white is somewhat better. I'm not completly convinced that black has to play exd3 because there is not a lot to be gained from that in comparrison with normal 2K lines.

Following is an interesting game with 16.Qf3 where Black only lost due to a bad blunder on move 43 (White immediately won with a double attack).

[Event "Seefeld Open 14th"]
[Site "Seefeld"]
[Date "2003.09.15"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Sax, Gyula"]
[Black "Pilz, Dieter"]
[WhiteElo "2521"]
[BlackElo "2312"]
[ECO "C59"]
[Result "1-0"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5+ c6 7.dxc6 bxc6 8.Be2 h6 9.Nf3 e4 10.Ne5 Qd4 11.f4 Bc5 12.Rf1 Bb6 13.c3 Qd6 14.d4 exd3 15.Qxd3 Qc7 16.Qf3 Bd7 17.Nd2 O-O 18.b4 Nb7 19.Ndc4 Nd6 20.Nxb6 axb6 21.Nxd7 Qxd7 22.Kf2 Rfe8 23.Kg1 b5 24.Bd3 Nde4 25.Bc2 c5 26.bxc5 Qc7 27.Be3 Nxc3 28.Kh1 Rad8 29.Bg1 Ne2 30.Bf2 Nd4 31.Qc3 Nxc2 32.Qxc2 Ne4 33.Be3 Qc6 34.f5 Nd2 35.Rfe1 Ne4 36.Rac1 Rd5 37.f6 Nxf6 38.Bg1 Red8 39.Re2 Nd7 40.Qe4 Nb8 41.Qf3 Rd3 42.Qg4 Na6 43.Re7 Nc7 44.Qf4 Ne8 45.Qxf7+ Kh7 46.Re6 Qd7 47.Qg6+ 1-0

When I first looked at the game I was surprised that White isn't +/- after move 23, when his king goes back to safety, but interestingly the "knight pair" proves to be dominant to the two bishops:

Position after 23.Kg1 - on the first sight it looks as if White is simply a pawn up with the two bishops. But following the game one recognizes that Black has enough compensation and dominating knights!

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Schaakhamster God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 650 Joined: 05/13/08	Re: Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4 Reply #4 - 01/06/10 at 14:23:07	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 01/06/10 at 13:34:11: Very little is new in the Italian complex. 10...Qd4 was analyzed at length by Steinitz in the late 19th Century. I dimly recall that there is a treatment of it in his Modern Chess Instructor. Could I also be correct in my dim recollection that this was contested in more than one game between Steinitz and Chigorin? In any case, it's one of those "lost variations" that was played, heavily analyzed, refuted, dropped out of space-strapped theory books, and then forgotten long enough to seem new upon rediscovery. At home, not here, I have the relevant pages of the 1916 Handbuch, Karl Schlechter, ed. If I can find the time I'll report here what St. Karl says about this move. There you go, nothing is new indeed. Players like Fischer and Larsen used to look for inspiration in those old openingbooks. Hmmm.. I have an old 2 book set about 1. e4 e5 of Keres lying around at home. Perhaps he has something to say about this line.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4 Reply #3 - 01/06/10 at 13:34:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Very little is new in the Italian complex. 10...Qd4 was analyzed at length by Steinitz in the late 19th Century. I dimly recall that there is a treatment of it in his Modern Chess Instructor. Could I also be correct in my dim recollection that this was contested in more than one game between Steinitz and Chigorin? In any case, it's one of those "lost variations" that was played, heavily analyzed, refuted, dropped out of space-strapped theory books, and then forgotten long enough to seem new upon rediscovery. At home, not here, I have the relevant pages of the 1916 Handbuch, Karl Schlechter, ed. If I can find the time I'll report here what St. Karl says about this move.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Schaakhamster God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 650 Joined: 05/13/08	Re: Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4 Reply #2 - 01/06/10 at 12:01:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	CaptainFuture wrote on 01/06/10 at 11:24:31: Hi Shaakmaster, 10...Qd4!? is an interesting move indeed. But i don't think Black has full compensation. In your stated game White can deviate with A) 14. d4 (instead of 14. b4) exd3 15. Qxd3 O-O 16. Qxd8 Rxd8 17. b4 Nb7 18. a4 (18. Bf3 Bf5 19. a4) 18... Re8 19. a5 Bc7 20. Nxc6 Bf5 21. Kf2 or prior with B) 13. d3 (instead of 13. c3) O-O (13...Bf5 14. dxe4 Bxe4 15. Qxd8+ Rxd8 16. Bd2 Nb7 17. Bf3) 14. dxe4 Qb6 15. Qd3 Rd8 16. Qf3 h5 17. h3 and White has the advantage. Kind Regards, Robert line A: Well exchanging queens is a big no-no . Chesspub gives 15. ... Qc7 =/unclear, I believe, but my impression is that after 16. Qf3 white is somewhat better. I'm not completly convinced that black has to play exd3 because there is not a lot to be gained from that in comparrison with normal 2K lines. line B: well have to look at that My first impression is: black hasn't got full compensation but is very close in a messy position (my general impression of the two knights). Perhaps the other lines (Bd6, Bc5 and Qc7) are a bit better but not by much I think.


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CaptainFuture YaBB Newbies Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 18 Location: Germany Joined: 03/25/09 Gender:	Re: Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4 Reply #1 - 01/06/10 at 11:24:31	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi Shaakmaster, 10...Qd4!? is an interesting move indeed. But i don't think Black has full compensation. In your stated game White can deviate with A) 14. d4 (instead of 14. b4) exd3 15. Qxd3 O-O 16. Qxd8 Rxd8 17. b4 Nb7 18. a4 (18. Bf3 Bf5 19. a4) 18... Re8 19. a5 Bc7 20. Nxc6 Bf5 21. Kf2 or prior with B) 13. d3 (instead of 13. c3) O-O (13...Bf5 14. dxe4 Bxe4 15. Qxd8+ Rxd8 16. Bd2 Nb7 17. Bf3) 14. dxe4 Qb6 15. Qd3 Rd8 16. Qf3 h5 17. h3 and White has the advantage. Kind Regards, Robert


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Schaakhamster God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 650 Joined: 05/13/08	Two knights 5. ... Na5 10. ... Qd4 01/06/10 at 08:26:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hi folks, friday I have a game against an opponent that plays Ng5 against the two knights. I was looking at the 1. e4 e5 archive at chesspub and came across Kriventsov - Becerra. I find this 10. ... Qd4 quite intresting and it seems to hold up to closer examination (=playable). A quick DB check showed that it hasn't been used a lot and most games are extremely messy. Could be a real nice surprise weapon when prepared properly. I find it funny that an hour with the two knight will ussually rejuvinate my enthousiasm for 1. e4 e5 [Event "ch-USA GpB"] [Site "San Diego USA"] [Date "2006.??.??"] [White "Kriventsov,S"] [Black "Becerra Rivero,J"] [Round "4"] [Result "1/2-1/2"] [WhiteElo "2449"] [BlackElo "2556"] [ECO "C59"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 d5 5. exd5 Na5 6. Bb5+ c6 7. dxc6 bxc6 8. Be2 h6 9. Nf3 e4 10. Ne5 Qd4 11. f4 Bc5 12. Rf1 Qd8 13. c3 Bb6 14. b4 Nb7 15. Nxc6 Qc7 16. Ne5 O-O 17. Na3 Nd6 18. Nac4 Be6 19. Nxd6 Qxd6 20. a4 Rfd8 21. a5 Bc7 22. d4 exd3 23. Qxd3 Bd5 24. Kf2 Qe6 25. Qh3 Ne4+ 26. Kg1 Qxh3 27. gxh3 Nxc3 28. Bf3 Bd6 29. Bb2 Bxb4 30. Nd3 Bxf3 31. Rxf3 Nd5 32. Nxb4 Nxb4 33. Rg3 g6 34. f5 Nd3 35. Bf6 Rd6 36. Be7 1/2-1/2 Edit: what do you people think of it?


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