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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) From Gambit (Read 70926 times)
Markovich
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #35 - 10/06/10 at 01:15:01
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Christian Lundmark Jensen wrote on 10/04/10 at 13:22:19:


I totally agree that 5.Nc3! etc.




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MNb
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #34 - 10/05/10 at 22:13:06
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5.Nc3 Ng4 6.g3 Nc6 7.d4 is the same as 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.d4 Ng4 7.g3 which is somewhat better for White according to Kaissiber 36. I have looked at 7...0-0 (iso 7...h5) 8.Bg2 Nxh2 9.Nxh2 Bxg3+ 10.Kf1 but this is insufficient for Black.
  
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Christian Lundmark Jensen
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #33 - 10/04/10 at 13:22:19
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/19/10 at 03:51:41:
Kaissiber 36 has an article of 21 pages on From's Gambit, written by Volker Hergert. He shows that 2...Nc6 ("Neo-From") is dubious, while 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 remains a reliable weapon. 4.Nf3 g5 invites heavy complications after both 5.g3 and 5.c3. I contributed six pages on 4...Nf6, when 5.Nc3! (Bent Larsen's idea) is the hardest test. Of course Taylor's book and James Vigus' fine chapter in Dangerous Weapons: Flank Openings have been considered, as many other sources.


I totally agree that 5.Nc3! (Larsens idea) is the hardest test to 4.Nf6, but I am not convinced that 5...Nc6 is Blacks best reply (as suggested by Bucker in Kaissiber 36), at least not from a practical point of view. Instead I recommend (5.Nc3) Ng4! 6.g3 and only then 6...Nc6! A key reason for me to prefer this move order over 5...Nc6 is that it keeps alive the hopes for Black for an early knockout on h2 - an option that has always been one of the main attractions for me to play the From gambit at all! The h2-knockout doesn't seem to work immediately, however. Thus after years of analysis I had to agree with Bucker that (5...Ng4 6.g3) 6...Nxh2 is insufficient. I have indeed over the years scored many brilliant and memorable wins with it, but Bucker - backing up analysis by Larsen - gave it a devastating bust some years back in Kaissiber, and I have never seen any convincing antidotes to his bust (or managed to come up with any antidotes myself). Now, in Kaissiber 36 after 5.Nc3 Bucker (drawing on analysis by Taylor and Vigus, which I haven't seen) recommends 5...Nc6 (giving an "!" by Bucker). He folllows up with pages of analysis concentrating on 6.e3, 6.e4 and 6.d4. A common problem with these lines are, to my view, that they all seem rather none forcing and tend to yield White a slight advantage in the end. A perhaps better and more practical approach for Black therefore is (to my view): 5...Ng4! 6.g3 and only now 6...Nc6! This way Whites choises are more limited than after 5...Nc6 - and thus Blacks need to study endless branches of analysis more limited too! After 5...Ng4 even a minor slip by White will allow Black to equalize quickly (at least), for example 6.d3, 6.d4, 6.e3 and 6.e4 all yields Black good prospects after 6...Nxh2 or 6...Bxh2. Also if White finds one the few good replies after 5...Ng4 6.g3 Nc6 then Blacks prospects should still be good. A sample line could be (1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Nc3) Ng4! 6.g3 Nc6! 7.Bg2 (7.Ne4 Bf5 8.Nxd6 Qxd6 with compensation to Black) 7...h5 8.0-0 h4 9.h3 Bxg3 10.hxg4 h3 11.Bh1 Qd7 unclear. 


  
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BirdBrain
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #32 - 05/05/10 at 12:06:20
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It very well could have been a premove, but it was different waters.  I just played to cramp his position - his kingside was in terrible shape! lol... 

As ugly as 2. Nf3 looks, it is still good to discuss weird moves like that too, since they are possible...and I think ...e4 puts the ball in Black's hands.  Reversed Four Pawns Attack...
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #31 - 05/04/10 at 16:54:08
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1.f4 e5 2.Nf3 e4 may well be Black's best as I don't think ...f5 would be a useful extra tempo in the Alekhine Defence, so Black probably has an edge here.

I don't think 2...exf4 3.d4 is as good for Black, turning the game into a sort of King's Gambit where White has played d4 instead of e4.  White threatens 4.Bxf4 with approximate equality, so to defend the pawn Black would need to play the awkward 3...Bd6 or 3...Bb4+ 4.c3 d6, while 3...g5 is likely to relinquish the pawn after 4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 d6 6.Nd3.  Still, this version strikes me as giving White far fewer attacking chances than the regular King's Gambit.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #30 - 05/04/10 at 14:55:24
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BirdBrain wrote on 05/04/10 at 14:32:55:
Yesterday, I faced a fellow who played 2. Nf3 against my From's Gambit.  How to approach it?  I played ...e4 and the game fell into some kind of reversed Alekhine's Defense.  I played into the Four Pawns approach, and I played to cramp all sides of the board...I don't know if I would recommend this approach for White, although it is different!  I am assuming he was expecting exf4 and planned on playing d4...


That's so ugly, I'd suspect it was a premove in online blitz. Smiley
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #29 - 05/04/10 at 14:32:55
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Yesterday, I faced a fellow who played 2. Nf3 against my From's Gambit.  How to approach it?  I played ...e4 and the game fell into some kind of reversed Alekhine's Defense.  I played into the Four Pawns approach, and I played to cramp all sides of the board...I don't know if I would recommend this approach for White, although it is different!  I am assuming he was expecting exf4 and planned on playing d4...
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #28 - 04/25/10 at 16:07:32
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MNb wrote on 04/25/10 at 13:31:54:
Another question: is 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.d4 0-0 7.e4 Bb4 8.Bg5 Bg4 9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Re8 equal indeed? After 11.Be2 Rxe4 (h6 12.Bxf6 Qxf6 13.0-0 and Black may take back the pawn only to lose the exchange) 12.0-0 White has a centre pawn, an halfopen f-file and the pair of bishops. Any KGeer would rejoice.

True, that's +/-, and not "=" as given in Kaissiber #36, p. 34. Somewhat better: 9...Ba5 +=. Together with the alternative 9.Qd3 += mentioned in the article (which still seems valid), the side-line 7...Bb4 apparently doesn't achieve full equality.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #27 - 04/25/10 at 14:09:18
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I see no compelling reason for Black to prefer the move-order 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 to 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6, but it's highly relevant to those who are interested in the move order 1.f4 Nc6 followed by 2...e5, since 2.Nf3 e5 3.fxe5 transposes.
  
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MNb
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #26 - 04/25/10 at 13:31:54
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7...Re8 looks good indeed. But it still doesn't answer the fundamental question: why should Black allow White extra options and deny him/herself a few? The best Black can get after 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 is a transposition to some 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 line, isn't it?

Another question: is 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6 6.d4 0-0 7.e4 Bb4 8.Bg5 Bg4 9.a3 Bxc3+ 10.bxc3 Re8 equal indeed? After 11.Be2 Rxe4 (h6 12.Bxf6 Qxf6 13.0-0 and Black may take back the pawn only to lose the exchange) 12.0-0 White has a centre pawn, an halfopen f-file and the pair of bishops. Any KGeer would rejoice.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #25 - 04/25/10 at 13:03:41
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MNb wrote on 04/25/10 at 11:13:29:
In Taimanov's Damengambit bis Holländisch the Russian GM gives 6.Bg5 (iso 6.e3) h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.e4 Bg4 9.c3 0-0-0 10.Nbd2 "indeed Black is better developed, but he cannot cash in on it."
With 6...0-0 Black invites yet another transposition to a line given in Kaissiber (7.Qd3 Re8) so the question is if White has better: 7.e4 Qe8 8.Bxf6 (8.e5 Nxe5!) Qxe4+ 9.Qe2 Qxe2+ 10.Bxe2 gxf6 and I am not sure if the pair of bishops fully compensate for the ruined pawn structure.

In my analysis file I find: (6.Bg5 0-0 7.e4) 7...Re8 (imo a sound alternative to your 7...Qe8; not sure why the following didn't make it into the article) 
(a) 8. Bd3? Bb4+ 9.c3 Nxe4 etc.
(b) 8.e5?! h6 9.Bc1 (9.Bh4 g5) 9...Bg4 10.Be2 Bxf3 11.Bxf3 Bb4+ 12.c3 Nxd4 13.cxb4 Nxf3+ 14.gxf3 Rxe5+ 15.Kf2 Nd5 -/+. 
(c) 8.Nbd2 Nxe4 9.Bxd8 Nc3+ 10.Be2 Nxd1 11.Bxc7 Nc3 12.bxc3 Bxc7 13.Rb1 Ba5 14.Rb3 Be6 15.Ra3 Bd8 16.Kf2 Be7 17.Ra4 a6 18.c4 b6 19.c3 Bd7 20.Bd1 Na5 unclear.

Quote:
One final objection to 2...Nc6 might be that 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.g3 allows the Mad Dog Attack (borrowed from the BDG) h5!? At the moment it seems to me that 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 is a slightly inferior version of 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6.

Against 5.g3, the reply 5...Nc6 (instead of 5...h5) is also fine.
  
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MNb
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #24 - 04/25/10 at 11:13:29
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SWJediknight wrote on 04/24/10 at 21:35:35:
Thus it seems to me that after 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3, 3...d6! is superior to 3...g5, and might well be good enough for equality.


Is there any reason to prefer this to 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nc6 or even 4...Nf6 5.d4 Nc6 ? Btw those Nc3 lines end with a modest +=, not with dynamic equality "but Black should not find it too hard to defend the position."
One other option is 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 4.e4 reaching a KGD-variation.

SWJediknight wrote on 04/24/10 at 21:35:35:
1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 4.exd6 Bxd6 5.d4 Nf6 and now 6.Nc3 transposes, while White can also try 6.e3 but after 6...0-0 7.Bd3 Re8 this is likely to transpose to the line 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d4 0-0 6.e3 Re8 given in Kaissiber, which is also equal.


In Taimanov's Damengambit bis Holländisch the Russian GM gives 6.Bg5 (iso 6.e3) h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.e4 Bg4 9.c3 0-0-0 10.Nbd2 "indeed Black is better developed, but he cannot cash in on it."
With 6...0-0 Black invites yet another transposition to a line given in Kaissiber (7.Qd3 Re8) so the question is if White has better: 7.e4 Qe8 8.Bxf6 (8.e5 Nxe5!) Qxe4+ 9.Qe2 Qxe2+ 10.Bxe2 gxf6 and I am not sure if the pair of bishops fully compensate for the ruined pawn structure.

One final objection to 2...Nc6 might be that 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.g3 allows the Mad Dog Attack (borrowed from the BDG) h5!? At the moment it seems to me that 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 is a slightly inferior version of 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #23 - 04/25/10 at 05:08:44
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You are right. And it is a bit strange that Kaissiber #36, p. 18, recommended (1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6) 3.Nc3 d6 4.exd6 Bxd6 5.Nf3 Nf6 transposing to this more regular From analyzed in the same issue, but forgot to mention that possiblity after 3.Nf3.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #22 - 04/24/10 at 21:35:35
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I've had a closer look re. my earlier suggestion of 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 and haven't been able to find anything convincing for White:

A1) 4.exd6 Bxd6 5.Nc3 transposes directly to the main 2...d6, 4...Nf6 line given as dynamically equal for Black in Kaissiber 36, Black just plays 5...Nf6 here.

A2) 5.d4 Nf6 and now 6.Nc3 transposes, while White can also try 6.e3 but after 6...0-0 7.Bd3 Re8 this is likely to transpose to the line 2...d6 3.exd6 Bxd6 4.Nf3 Nf6 5.d4 0-0 6.e3 Re8 given in Kaissiber, which is also equal.

A3) 5.e4 Nf6 gives White the independent possibilities 6.Bb5 and 6.d4 returning the pawn (e.g. 6.Bb5 Nxe4 7.d3 Nf6 8.Qe2+ Be6), but Black can also try 5...Qe7 here, generally planning ...Bg4 and ...Nf6 rather than taking on e4 with the queen.

A4) 5.e3 Nf6 6.Be2 (6.d4 0-0 transposes again to Kaissiber's line) 6...Qe7 (6...0-0 transposes to a line which is queried in Kaissiber), followed by ...Bf5 or ...Bg4 and castling long.

B) 4.Nc3 is also possible, when Black has nothing better than 4...dxe5 leading to similar lines to 2...d6 3.Nf3 dxe5 4.Nc3.  Chances should be equal.

Thus it seems to me that after 1.f4 e5 2.fxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3, 3...d6! is superior to 3...g5, and might well be good enough for equality.
  
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Re: From Gambit
Reply #21 - 04/11/10 at 14:45:45
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 01/19/10 at 03:51:41:
Kaissiber 36 has an article of 21 pages on From's Gambit, written by Volker Hergert. He shows that 2...Nc6 ("Neo-From") is dubious


or the "Concealed From" Smiley

yes, it's probably dubious theoretically, but I still find it's a mighty surprise weapon in practice
  
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