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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Off beat line agaisnt the caro (Read 57697 times)
Markovich
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #70 - 03/19/10 at 12:06:40
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Probably so.
  

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zoo
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #69 - 03/18/10 at 23:06:24
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Markovich wrote on 03/18/10 at 19:48:19:

A related offbeat line is 3.Qf3, also with plans of sacrificing the d-pawn.  I have less confidence in it, though.  As I recall, the antidote is supposed to be ...dxe4 followed by ...Nd7, ...Ndf6.  Why, I forget.

After 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nd7, White wants to play 5.d4 but here 5...Ndf6 is a double attack on d4 & e4, e.g. 6.c3 Nxe4 7.Qxe4 Nf6 with fine development for Black. This could be the reason?
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #68 - 03/18/10 at 20:41:38
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Markovich wrote on 03/18/10 at 19:48:19:
I wonder if anyone thinks that the gambit form of the Two Knights promising: 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 e6 6.d4 dxe4 7.Nxd4 Qxd4 8.Bd3 and now for example, 8...Nf6 9.Be3!? Qxb7 10.0-0.  Two pawns is perhaps a lot to give up, but White has what appears to be a lot of comp.


Looking at a few encyclopedias there seems to be agreement that White gets "compensation" if Black accepts the pawn; MCO even gives 6. d4 an exclam.  However, (a) declining is a major possibility (MCO thinks that should lead to an edge for White; the others don't -- a point of contention is a game Short-Karpov) and (b) 5...Nf6 appears to discourage gambitting.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #67 - 03/18/10 at 19:48:19
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I wonder if anyone thinks that the gambit form of the Two Knights promising: 1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.h3 Bxf3 5.Qxf3 e6 6.d4 dxe4 7.Nxd4 Qxd4 8.Bd3 and now for example, 8...Nf6 9.Be3!? Qxb7 10.0-0.  Two pawns is perhaps a lot to give up, but White has what appears to have a lot of comp.

A related offbeat line is 3.Qf3, also with plans of sacrificing the d-pawn.  I have less confidence in it, though.  As I recall, the antidote is supposed to be ...dxe4 followed by ...Nd7, ...Ndf6.  Why, I forget.
« Last Edit: 03/19/10 at 12:05:45 by Markovich »  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #66 - 03/18/10 at 13:37:33
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Is the Fantasy variation back in fashion?

Fantasy Variation in the European Chess Championship in Rijeka, 13 games including Nepomniachtchi - Jobava:
http://www.chessbase.com/cbm/cbm134e/cbm134-11/fantasy_eicc.htm

Analysis by Marcus Schmuecker of 1.e4  c6  2.d4  d5  3.f3  dxe4  4.fxe4  e5  5.Nf3  Bg4  6.Bc4  Nd7  7.c3:
http://www.chessbase.com/cbm/cbm134e/cbm134-11/fantasy.htm
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #65 - 02/24/10 at 01:57:53
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Conquistador wrote on 02/23/10 at 05:31:48:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3-Rasa-Studier Gambit


The Rasa-Studier Gambit arises after 1...e6 iso 1...c6. This Anti-Caro Kann gambit is invented and played by Von Hennig in the 20's of the last century, long before Rasa and Studier showed up. It is one of the oldest members of the BDG-family. But after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 Nf6 (an important position of the BDG) I doubt if White has any better than 6.Bc4, after which you must rely on Bücker (see his Chesscafe column) if you want to prove compensation.
Still 4.Bc4 might be more precise than 4.f3 - and 3.f3 might even be a better version.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #64 - 02/23/10 at 20:45:00
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A sparkling game indeed. I don't see any advantage for White after 5...f6 6.ef6 (6.Be3 g6 or 6...fe5 7.de5 g6 is pretty solid for Black) 6...ef6 7.Bf4 (7.Be3 Bd6) 7...Bd6 but at least the positions are quite unconventional and interesting.

@SWJediKnight

I agree that 5.Be3 is better, although I still prefer Black after 5...ed4 6.Bd4 (6.Qd4 Qd4 7.Bd4 ef3 8.Nf3 Nbd7 isn't enough for a pawn) 6...Bb4 7.a3 Ba5 8.Qd2 ef3 (8...0-0!?) 9.Nf3 0-0 10.0-0-0 Nbd7.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #63 - 02/23/10 at 19:48:11
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TN wrote on 02/23/10 at 06:56:28:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.h4-Tal Variation

I've played this myself as White, but I never found a way to fight for an edge after 4...h5 5.c4 e6 6.Nc3 Be7!, and 6.Bg5!? as suggested by Okhotnik doesn't give White any edge either. Still, it's a fully respectable anti-CK.



You might want to take a look at 5.Bg5 in this line. The rather outrageous idea is to meet 5...Qb6 with 6.Bd3 Bxd3 7.Qxd3 Qxb2 8.e6! 

It looks very unlikely but I have a big plus score with this in online blitz (about +200 rating performance). The main point is the queen often gets trapped on a1 and ends up being exchanged for the second white rook on f1 after white castles. The resulting material balance might even favor black were it not for the fact that his k-side is going nowhere anytime soon giving white a massive temporary material advantage. Add to that the black queenside is shaky (b7 is hard to defend without letting the Queen in) and the black king is potentially vulnerable and you have a very effective practical system.

I don't doubt that with perfect defence, black may be OK but he has significant short-term problems.  In addition, there is the useful psychological factor that this isn't the kind of position black was expecting when he played 1...c6.

There is an article by the indefatigable Michael Goeller (urusov) at http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2007/caro-adv-h4.htm
  
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SWJediknight
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #62 - 02/23/10 at 14:11:10
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TN wrote on 02/23/10 at 06:56:28:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3-Rasa-Studier Gambit

If White wants to play in BGD style, then 4.Bc4 is probably a better (albeit still insufficient, imo) way to sacrifice a pawn. 4.f3 e5!? looks rather difficult for White to meet, since 5.de5 Qd1 6.Nd1 ef3 (6...Nd7!?) 7.gf3 f6 is preferable for Black.


I posted on that line as I sometimes play it myself.  5.dxe5 is somewhat obliging, allowing Black to exchange queens and drive White's king's knight to an unfavourable position- I think Black has at least a slight advantage here, and maybe more.

As Tim McGrew pointed out in his old column at Chesscafe, 5.Be3 is probably the best answer, and I gave some analysis in a previous post.

However 4.Bc4 does cut out this 4...e5 possibility- then after 4...Nf6 5.f3 the most critical responses are 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 (which Stefan Bucker discussed in a recent article) and 5...b5!? as played by Bareev against Short, where I gave 6.fxe4 b4 7.Na4 instead of Short's 7.Nce2.
  
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TN
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #61 - 02/23/10 at 11:47:23
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Thanks for the link Lou_Cyber!

The handle of Michael Goeller is urusov. I used to play this line and gave it up a couple of years ago, but I just might give it a whirl again...

I had a quick look through the PGN file, and interestingly Goeller recommends the 4...Nf6 5.d4 g6 line but claims that White can secure an advantage with precise play, whereas after 4...Nf6 5.d4 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 he feels that Black should equalise with 7.Nd7 Qd7 8.c3 a6 9.Bd3 e5!, which is one reason I quit playing this variation.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #60 - 02/23/10 at 10:57:13
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And don´t forget the Apocalypse attack,

1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.exd cxd 4.Ne5!?

A chesspub nember (forgot the nick, sorry) has a good source on this in the net:

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/articles/opening/apocalypse/apocalypse.htm
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #59 - 02/23/10 at 06:56:28
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Conquistador wrote on 02/23/10 at 05:31:48:
Here are a few offbeat lines I have used:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3-Maroczy Variation

In my opinion this is one of the better offbeat lines for White. Black can equalise with either 3...e6 or 3...g6, but the positions tend to be quite interesting and imbalanced.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.h4-Tal Variation

I've played this myself as White, but I never found a way to fight for an edge after 4...h5 5.c4 e6 6.Nc3 Be7!, and 6.Bg5!? as suggested by Okhotnik doesn't give White any edge either. Still, it's a fully respectable anti-CK.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4-Delayed Bayonet Variation

This isn't an offbeat line; in fact this is one of the three main lines of the Advance Variation.

1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3-Two Knights

Again, not an offbeat line. The main thing that puts me off this is 3...Bg4 4.h3 Bf3 5.Qf3 e6, when 6.d4 is a dubious gambit and other options aren't too inspiring.

1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3-Goldman Variation

An interesting surprise weapon which I believed was analysed in detail in an issue of Kaissiber and 1.Nc3. It's not at all easy to meet, especially if Black isn't booked up.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4 4.Ng5-Ulysses Gambit

Don't trust this at all. 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Bf5 makes the whole variation rather doubtful for White, e.g. 6.f3 ef3 7.Qf3 Bc2 and White lacks compensation for two pawns.

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3-Rasa-Studier Gambit

If White wants to play in BGD style, then 4.Bc4 is probably a better (albeit still insufficient, imo) way to sacrifice a pawn. 4.f3 e5!? looks rather difficult for White to meet, since 5.de5 Qd1 6.Nd1 ef3 (6...Nd7!?) 7.gf3 f6 is preferable for Black.

Lots of choices to choose from depending on your style.

  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #58 - 02/23/10 at 05:31:48
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Here are a few offbeat lines I have used:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.f3-Maroczy Variation
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.h4-Tal Variation
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4-Delayed Bayonet Variation
1.e4 c6 2.Nf3 d5 3.Nc3-Two Knights
1.e4 c6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3-Goldman Variation
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nf3 dxe4 4.Ng5-Ulysses Gambit
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.f3-Rasa-Studier Gambit

Lots of choices to choose from depending on your style.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #57 - 02/20/10 at 00:40:39
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4.Bc4 Nf6 5.Qe2 Bg4 6.Qe3 Qb6 and White must accept a queen trade or lose time with 7.Qc3 Nd5. That said, 7.Nc3 Qxe3+ 8.fxe3 e6 9.0-0 doesn't look too bad for White, as Black's extra pawn is doubled and White has a nice half-open f-file plus lead in development.

After 5.Nc3 Qd4 6.Qe2 Bg4, White's best is probably 7.f3 (I suspect that this would be a much stronger gambit if the knight was still at g1!) 7...exf3 8.gxf3 Bxf3 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Qxf3, and White may have enough compensation.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #56 - 02/19/10 at 17:07:47
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Another Englund comparison would be that White doesn't have Qb5+ after 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. Qe2 Bg4.  And would White not be bothered by 5. Nc3 Qd4 6. Qe2 Bg4?

On a side note, regarding "is there something wrong with the good old Tarrasch rule that three developing moves are worth a pawn?", I have had the same thought when seeing e.g. Black searching for/claiming decent compensation in the Latvian when he appears to be nowhere near getting three tempi for his pawn (and doesn't appear to have structural compensation comparable to the Benko, etc.).
  
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