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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Off beat line agaisnt the caro (Read 57738 times)
MNb
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #25 - 02/11/10 at 22:56:26
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This does not resemble a Morra Gambit at all as the e-pawn is sacced and not the d-pawn. It is just a BDG without the c-pawns. So after 4...dxe4 5.Nc3 it makes sense to play e5, like the Lviv-Defence (usually incorrectly called Lemberg Counter Gambit). After 5...Nf6 White probably does best to play 6.Bg5 as Bf5 7.Bb5+ (here White benefits) looks playable.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #24 - 02/11/10 at 21:50:40
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Another offbeat one:
1.e4 c6 2.c4 d5 3.cxd5 cxd5 4.d4 
Though you must enjoy gambits. It resembles a BDG or Morra a little, but I think this may be better for white. I'd be quite interested in what our resident gambiteers think about this line.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #23 - 02/11/10 at 01:39:23
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Ben_Hague wrote on 02/10/10 at 19:24:06:
Ne2 is commonly played in the fianchetto variation against the Modern, so I'd suggest after 1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 g6 3.d4 Bg7 trying 4.g3. Now d6 either immediately or in a few moves will transpose to normal Modern positions where c6 restricts Black's options slightly, so 4...d5 looks critical. Now 5.exd5 seems to be well met by 5...Qxd5, 5.f3 by 5...e5 (or 5...dxe4 6.fxe4 e5), 5.Nbc3 by 5...dxe4 6.Nxe4 Bf5 and 5.Bg2 by 5...dxe4 6.Bxe4 Nf6. So 5.e5 must be right when my feeling is the White ought to still have a slight edge. If Black plays it like an Advance French then the bishop on g7 looks misplaced, and if the bishop comes to f5 it risks becoming a target for h3 and g4, or possibly Nd2-f3-h4. 5...f6!? may be best, getting activity at the cost of structure, but I don't think White is unhappy there.


Black's Bg7 may be unorthodox for an Advance French, but so is the Ne2 - hardly an issue for black that would shift the evaluation to anything promising for white. It's still equal.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #22 - 02/10/10 at 22:18:23
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kylemeister wrote on 02/10/10 at 22:08:51:
So moving White's knight from g1 to b1 is an improvement, which compensates for putting his pawn back on d2?

There is some point to it because White can now keep the knight on e4 rather than have it driven back, or exchanged on f6. There are also advantages to not having played d4, b3 definitely comes into consideration and Black may find it harder to get play without having the c5 or e5 breaks.
Is it really worth a tempo? To be honest I'm not convinced, but it's probably somewhere between a normal opening advantage and equality.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #21 - 02/10/10 at 22:08:51
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So moving White's knight from g1 to b1 is an improvement, which compensates for putting his pawn back on d2?
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #20 - 02/10/10 at 21:47:02
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I think I agree with 1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 d5 3.e5 d4 being good for Black, so what about 3.Ng3? E.g. 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nbc3 or 3...e5 4.d4 dxe4 5.dxe5 Qxd1+ 6.Kxd1 Nd7 7.Bf4 Ne7 8.e6 fxe6 9.Nxe4 in both cases with a slight (maybe very slight) plus for White.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #19 - 02/10/10 at 20:59:08
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It isn't clear at all whether 5...h6 6.h5 followed by 7.e6 is good for White. Second, on 5...h5 White has much better plans in 6.Be2 (attacking h5) and 6. d4, both unclear. I'd say that 5...h5?! = is rather worse than 5...h6 6.h5 Bh7 7.e6?!. Frankly, 5...h5 isn't relevant, considering the stronger options. 

@PatzerNoster: 3.f3!?, or the BDG-style 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4. Kaissiber also published analyses of 3.e5 Bf5 4.b4!? and 2.Nc3 d5 3.Qf3 (Goldman). Kais. #37 will contain another surprise.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #18 - 02/10/10 at 20:56:45
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The main line after 1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Ng3 Bg6 5.h4 h5 seems to be 6.d4 as played in Ruben Felgaer v Edgar Espinoza which was annotated in Spanish on the Chess Cafe website. I don't read Spanish, but it looks like White got an edge quite easily.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #17 - 02/10/10 at 20:23:21
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Ametanoitos wrote on 02/10/10 at 20:11:09:
1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 d5 3.e5 d4! is ofcourse best as Mr Buecker points out but there is also another pretty straightforward solution which is 3...Bf5! 4.Ng3 Bg6 5.h4 h5! (why on earth to play the stupid 5...h6?) 6.e6 Qd6! = with the idea 7.exf7 Bxf7 (that's why the Bishop should not be at h7)


This is also what I don't understand, nobody looks at 5. ... h5, I think black is also very OK after 6. ... fe6: , as the g-pawn can be moved and he can develop via Bf7, g6,Bg7 when I think black is slightly better.

I also mentioned this possibility in another thread on the Ne2-Caro on this forum. Does Fogarasi look at 5. ... h5?


Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/10/10 at 10:03:06:

There exist other "good solid offbeat lines" in the Caro-Kann, which I'd prefer to 2.Ne2.


Can you give us a hint?  Wink
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #16 - 02/10/10 at 20:11:09
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1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 d5 3.e5 d4! is ofcourse best as Mr Buecker points out but there is also another pretty straightforward solution which is 3...Bf5! 4.Ng3 Bg6 5.h4 h5! (why on earth to play the stupid 5...h6?) 6.e6 Qd6! = with the idea 7.exf7 Bxf7 (that's why the Bishop should not be at h7)
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #15 - 02/10/10 at 19:24:06
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Ne2 is commonly played in the fianchetto variation against the Modern, so I'd suggest after 1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 g6 3.d4 Bg7 trying 4.g3. Now d6 either immediately or in a few moves will transpose to normal Modern positions where c6 restricts Black's options slightly, so 4...d5 looks critical. Now 5.exd5 seems to be well met by 5...Qxd5, 5.f3 by 5...e5 (or 5...dxe4 6.fxe4 e5), 5.Nbc3 by 5...dxe4 6.Nxe4 Bf5 and 5.Bg2 by 5...dxe4 6.Bxe4 Nf6. So 5.e5 must be right when my feeling is the White ought to still have a slight edge. If Black plays it like an Advance French then the bishop on g7 looks misplaced, and if the bishop comes to f5 it risks becoming a target for h3 and g4, or possibly Nd2-f3-h4. 5...f6!? may be best, getting activity at the cost of structure, but I don't think White is unhappy there.
  
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Re: Offbeat line against the Caro-Kann
Reply #14 - 02/10/10 at 10:15:20
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/10/10 at 10:03:06:
TN wrote on 02/10/10 at 09:36:34:
In any case, there have been several new developments in this line since the article was written (only about 3 months ago) and in my opinion the variation certainly deserves an update in a future Yearbook. 

Btw, SOS 8 appeared in 2008, not about 3 months ago. 4.c3 c5 5.Nf4 is best, but White only fights for equality. - There exist other "good solid offbeat lines" in the Caro-Kann, which I'd prefer to 2.Ne2.


Sorry, I meant the Yearbook 93 article by Fogarasi, not the 2008 SOS survey by Felgaer (which I don't have). 

I agree with you, 2.Ne2 isn't looking half as strong as it appeared in Fogarasi's survey! Thanks for sharing your analyses here, I now have a large arsenal of weapons against 2.Ne2 devotees. Grin
  
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Re: Offbeat line against the Caro-Kann
Reply #13 - 02/10/10 at 10:03:06
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TN wrote on 02/10/10 at 09:36:34:
In any case, there have been several new developments in this line since the article was written (only about 3 months ago) and in my opinion the variation certainly deserves an update in a future Yearbook. 

Btw, SOS 8 appeared in 2008, not about 3 months ago. 4.c3 c5 5.Nf4 is best, but White only fights for equality. - There exist other "good solid offbeat lines" in the Caro-Kann, which I'd prefer to 2.Ne2.
  
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Re: Offbeat line against the Caro-Kann
Reply #12 - 02/10/10 at 09:55:49
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TN wrote on 02/10/10 at 09:36:34:


@BPaulsen

I'd say that both Bucker's recommended 3...d4 (which has been tried in some games) and your recommendation of 2...g6 lead to equality. I assume by simpler you mean that while 2...g6 requires knowledge of a few rare lines of the Pirc or Modern, 3...d4 doesn't require knowledge of a different opening system.

NIC didn't cover the position (they don't mention 2...g6, which isn't too surprising given its rarity and the brevity of the article), I checked the position after 4.c4 on my database and noticed that only 4...d6 had been played before. 

In any case, there have been several new developments in this line since the article was written (only about 3 months ago) and in my opinion the variation certainly deserves an update in a future Yearbook. 


Yeah, that's all I meant. Not all C-K players have experience with the Modern, so it's simpler to just learn Buecker's line than exposing oneself to a whole bunch of new positions.

I prefer 2...g6 for practical purposes, but 2...d5 3. e5 d4 looks fine as well.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #11 - 02/10/10 at 09:49:26
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The article by Ruben Felgaer in SOS vol. 8, pp. 17-28, only considers 2.Ne2 d5. According to Felgaer, Short is "one of the founding fathers of this variation", thus Janos Balogh, who played 2.Ne2 in the 1930ies, must be its grandfather. - Of course 2...g6 is a perfectly sound reaction. 
2.Ne2 d5 3.e5 d4 4.Ng3 Qd5! (better than Qa5) 5.f4 (5.Qe2 f6 =+) 5...g5 6.c4 Qe6 7.d3 gxf4 8.Bxf4 Nd7 9.Qe2 Bg7 10.Nh5 Bxe5 11.Nd2 Qd6 12.Ne4 Balogh - Zimmermann, Postal olympiad 1938, and here Balogh gave 12...Qc7 as an improvement in Revista Romana de Sah.
  
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