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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Off beat line agaisnt the caro (Read 57787 times)
PatzerNoster
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #40 - 02/16/10 at 01:06:44
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I analysed this a bit and played it in rapid and blitz games around the time of the McGrew article.

It is interesting, but in my view it is too great a risk against anyone above 2200. Essentially white doesn't have enough for the pawn.  Undecided
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #39 - 02/15/10 at 19:33:05
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The BDG-style responses may be controversial but they are, indeed, a possibility.  

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 dxe4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 was met by 5...b5!? by Bareev against Short some years ago.  6.Bb3 a6 7.fxe4 b4 8.Na4 (8.Nce2, as played by Short, 8...Nxe4 9.Nf3 Be6 10.0-0 Bd6, =+) 8...Nxe4 9.Qf3 Nf6 (9...Qxd4 10.Ne2 Be5 11.Bf4 is probably a pawn too far) 10.Ne2 Ba6 11.Bg5 (or 11.c4 bxc3 12.Naxc3) with decent compensation.  Alternatively Eric Schiller's preference 5...Qa5 allows White good compensation after 6.Bd2!. 
Instead Stefan Bucker covered 5...exf3 6.Nxf3 Bf5 in a recent online article, 7.Bg5 e6 (else 8.Qe2 and 9.0-0-0, with sufficient compensation) 8.Nh4 leading to a dynamically equal position.

The other alternative is 4.f3, which I have used in quite a few games, most opponents take the f-pawn, when after 4...exf3 5.Nxf3 Nf6, White can choose between 6.Bd3 and 6.Bc4 transposing to 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.f3 exf3 6.Nxf3.  The problem with 4.f3 is traditionally 4...e5, but Tim McGrew made quite a strong case for 5.Be3 http://www.chesscafe.com/text/mcgrew02.pdf (unlike in the Lemberger, Black cannot use the c6-square for the knight, so 5...exd4 6.Bxd4 doesn't quite work for Black).  5...Bb4 6.Bc4 Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 Qa5 (a possible improvement on McGrew's 7...exd4) 8.Ne2 exf3 9.0-0 with sharp and unclear play.

Alternatively 4.f3 Nf6 transposes to O'Kelly's defence to the BDG when White should transpose with 5.Bc4 as there are quite a few lines that defuse 5.Nxe4 (McGrew's analysis goes 5...Nxe4 6.fxe4 e5 7.Nf3 exd4?!- instead 7...Be6!, or 5...e5, which I discovered independently, or 5...Nbd7, proposed by someone else on this forum).
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #38 - 02/15/10 at 14:54:48
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"Lemberger Gegengambit", Tartakower's name for 3...e5, in a letter written [about 1953] to Diemer, could well be an old expression created in the Vienna of 1889-..., when Ignaz von Popiel used to play his 3.Nc3. Until 1918 Lemberg belonged to Austria. - One could as well try to rename the Leningrad Variation. Not so easy, after a name is established.  We all know the "Muzio Gambit"...   
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #37 - 02/15/10 at 14:19:17
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Thx, Michael, you beat me to the punch.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #36 - 02/15/10 at 12:45:05
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Lviv-Defense or Lemberg Counter Gambit or Lvov something are all three correct. These are the names of the same city but in three different language.
Lviv is ukrainian, Lvov is russian, Lemberg is german and you also can have Lwów or Leopol.


The Oxford Manual of Style (widely used and respected UK style guide) gives (p. 809) L'viv and L'vov for the Ukrainian and Russian spellings, and Lvov for the (post-1945) English spelling. It points out that Lemberg is the Yiddish, as well as the German, spelling.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #35 - 02/15/10 at 12:34:32
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Willempie wrote on 02/13/10 at 16:32:12:
MNb wrote on 02/11/10 at 22:56:26:
This does not resemble a Morra Gambit at all as the e-pawn is sacced and not the d-pawn. It is just a BDG without the c-pawns. So after 4...dxe4 5.Nc3 it makes sense to play e5, like the Lviv-Defence (usually incorrectly called Lemberg Counter Gambit). After 5...Nf6 White probably does best to play 6.Bg5 as Bf5 7.Bb5+ (here White benefits) looks playable.

I looked a little in the shredder database and couldnt find any black pawntakers, so there must be something in it.


Is there anything wrong with the immediate 5...Bf5? Also, after 5...Nf6 6.Bg5, Black can always play 6...e6 7.Ne4 Be7, when this looks like a somewhat improved French since Black has already achieved the liberating ...c5 break, and the IQP could be a problem later. Still, it shouldn't lead to more than equality.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #34 - 02/15/10 at 12:30:33
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MNb wrote on 02/11/10 at 22:56:26:
This does not resemble a Morra Gambit at all as the e-pawn is sacced and not the d-pawn. It is just a BDG without the c-pawns. So after 4...dxe4 5.Nc3 it makes sense to play e5, like the Lviv-Defence (usually incorrectly called Lemberg Counter Gambit). After 5...Nf6 White probably does best to play 6.Bg5 as Bf5 7.Bb5+ (here White benefits) looks playable.

Lviv-Defense or Lemberg Counter Gambit or Lvov something are all three correct. These are the names of the same city but in three different language.
Lviv is ukrainian, Lvov is russian, Lemberg is german and you also can have Lwów or Leopol.
  

Yusupov once said that “The problem with the Dutch Defence is that later in many positions the best move would be ...f5-f7” but he is surely wrong.
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #33 - 02/13/10 at 21:52:40
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Or that database is limited - I found several. All the moves I mentioned have been played before.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #32 - 02/13/10 at 16:32:12
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MNb wrote on 02/11/10 at 22:56:26:
This does not resemble a Morra Gambit at all as the e-pawn is sacced and not the d-pawn. It is just a BDG without the c-pawns. So after 4...dxe4 5.Nc3 it makes sense to play e5, like the Lviv-Defence (usually incorrectly called Lemberg Counter Gambit). After 5...Nf6 White probably does best to play 6.Bg5 as Bf5 7.Bb5+ (here White benefits) looks playable.

I looked a little in the shredder database and couldnt find any black pawntakers, so there must be something in it.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #31 - 02/13/10 at 13:09:27
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Ben_Hague wrote on 02/13/10 at 10:14:38:

Normal White advantage means what it says, White normally has an advantage. This has been demonstrated many times and in many different ways. If White does something abnormal then the advantage goes, likewise if Black does something abnormal then the advantage grows, but if both players do something similarly abnormal then the advantage stays where it was, which is with White.


A normal opening advantage does not exist. Period. White can play moves that are alright and still not obtain anything. A lot of openings cease to be critical because they do not offer any advantage.

That aside, in this particular line white has been doing something abnormal.

This is probably why 4...Bf5 is also completely equal, and perhaps even simpler.

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There are still a couple of ways in which White can look for an edge, 8.c3 Be7 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Qxd8+ Kxd8 11.Bf4 f6 12.0-0-0 Kc7 when there may be a way to keep the initiative going, perhaps 13.Ng5!?. 8.Bc4 is an interesting pawn sac', 8...Nb6 9.Bb3 Qxd4 10.Qf3 Qd7 11.0-0 with reasonable play for the pawn.


Your 8. Bc4 line is good for no more than adequate compensation at best, white has absolutely nothing beyond that.

8. c3 Qc7 is adequate.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #30 - 02/13/10 at 10:14:38
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There's no such thing as a "normal white advantage". White doesn't get an advantage just because he's white if he's playing inferior moves, or moves that are known to lead to equality. Does white have a "normal advantage" after 1. a3? No. Same exact thing as 2. Ne2/3. Ng3 - white's playing moves that lose his claim to an opening advantage.


Normal White advantage means what it says, White normally has an advantage. This has been demonstrated many times and in many different ways. If White does something abnormal then the advantage goes, likewise if Black does something abnormal then the advantage grows, but if both players do something similarly abnormal then the advantage stays where it was, which is with White.


Quote:
White has nothing, being completely objective, after 5. Nbc3 Ngf6 6. d4 Nxe4 7. Nxe4 e5. The only question after 3. Ng3 is whether black wants to play for a win, or not, in which case he needs to pick a different continuation. Kylemeister beat me to the punch, though.


There are still a couple of ways in which White can look for an edge, 8.c3 Be7 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Qxd8+ Kxd8 11.Bf4 f6 12.0-0-0 Kc7 when there may be a way to keep the initiative going, perhaps 13.Ng5!?. 8.Bc4 is an interesting pawn sac', 8...Nb6 9.Bb3 Qxd4 10.Qf3 Qd7 11.0-0 with reasonable play for the pawn.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #29 - 02/13/10 at 03:20:39
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Ben_Hague wrote on 02/12/10 at 21:10:04:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/12/10 at 02:25:39:

3. Ng3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 =. White's set-up is entirely innocuous. There's not even a slight plus.


Taking the line a bit further 5.Nbc3 Ngf6 6.d4 looks natural, when 6...Nxe4 7.Nxe4 Nf6 8.Nxf6+ is a main line with all the knights off, which I can't see as a bad thing for White. 6...e6 is solid but the space advantage and Bc8 must be worth something for White. I'm therefore going to assume that Black's idea is to play g6 and Nd5, Nf/b6, so 6...Nd5 7.Bc4 N7b6 8.Bb3 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Re1 0-0 is natural. White has a few possibilities here, I quite like the look of 11.Nxd5, e.g. 11...Nxd5 12.c3 Bf5 13.Qf3 with a little more space, or 11...cxd5 12.Nc5 with a little pressure.

Not much in either case, just a bit more comfortable for White.

Quote:
Black's Bg7 may be unorthodox for an Advance French, but so is the Ne2 - hardly an issue for black that would shift the evaluation to anything promising for white. It's still equal.


Presumably that depends on how you evaluate the Advance French. I would consider it a normal opening for White, so leading to a normal white advantage, but if you consider it equal then adding an unorthodox move each should keep that evaluation.


There's no such thing as a "normal white advantage". White doesn't get an advantage just because he's white if he's playing inferior moves, or moves that are known to lead to equality. Does white have a "normal advantage" after 1. a3? No. Same exact thing as 2. Ne2/3. Ng3 - white's playing moves that lose his claim to an opening advantage.

White has nothing, being completely objective, after 5. Nbc3 Ngf6 6. d4 Nxe4 7. Nxe4 e5. The only question after 3. Ng3 is whether black wants to play for a win, or not, in which case he needs to pick a different continuation. Kylemeister beat me to the punch, though.
  

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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #28 - 02/12/10 at 23:04:40
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One consideration here is that in the position after 3. Ng3 de 4. Nxe4 Nd7 5. Nbc3 Ngf6 6. d4 Nxe4 7. Nxe4, ECO gives 7...e5 as equal.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #27 - 02/12/10 at 21:10:04
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/12/10 at 02:25:39:

3. Ng3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 =. White's set-up is entirely innocuous. There's not even a slight plus.


Taking the line a bit further 5.Nbc3 Ngf6 6.d4 looks natural, when 6...Nxe4 7.Nxe4 Nf6 8.Nxf6+ is a main line with all the knights off, which I can't see as a bad thing for White. 6...e6 is solid but the space advantage and Bc8 must be worth something for White. I'm therefore going to assume that Black's idea is to play g6 and Nd5, Nf/b6, so 6...Nd5 7.Bc4 N7b6 8.Bb3 g6 9.0-0 Bg7 10.Re1 0-0 is natural. White has a few possibilities here, I quite like the look of 11.Nxd5, e.g. 11...Nxd5 12.c3 Bf5 13.Qf3 with a little more space, or 11...cxd5 12.Nc5 with a little pressure.

Not much in either case, just a bit more comfortable for White.

Quote:
Black's Bg7 may be unorthodox for an Advance French, but so is the Ne2 - hardly an issue for black that would shift the evaluation to anything promising for white. It's still equal.


Presumably that depends on how you evaluate the Advance French. I would consider it a normal opening for White, so leading to a normal white advantage, but if you consider it equal then adding an unorthodox move each should keep that evaluation.
  
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Re: Off beat line agaisnt the caro
Reply #26 - 02/12/10 at 02:25:39
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Ben_Hague wrote on 02/10/10 at 21:47:02:
I think I agree with 1.e4 c6 2.Ne2 d5 3.e5 d4 being good for Black, so what about 3.Ng3? E.g. 3...dxe4 4.Nxe4 Nf6 5.Nbc3 or 3...e5 4.d4 dxe4 5.dxe5 Qxd1+ 6.Kxd1 Nd7 7.Bf4 Ne7 8.e6 fxe6 9.Nxe4 in both cases with a slight (maybe very slight) plus for White.


3. Ng3 dxe4 4. Nxe4 Nd7 =. White's set-up is entirely innocuous. There's not even a slight plus.
  

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