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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition? (Read 150625 times)
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #129 - 06/04/12 at 04:33:30
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kylemeister wrote on 06/03/12 at 21:48:38:
I have sometimes thought that there should be a separate forum rubric called something like "Salivating and Speculating (about forthcoming repertoire/play the X products)".  Who knows, maybe one day people will sometimes have occasion to post, "Doesn't that really belong in S&S?".


I live for that day.
Perhaps a good idea. Tony K?
Discuss postage, postmen (mine is about 5ft 7inch, green uniform, hefty greying sideburns fluffing out of his green uniform cap, scuffed brown shoes), pages, possible colour of cover etc. 


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Edited to correct the syntax of the highlight and the quote. ~SF June 3, 2012

  
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Sean Coffey
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #128 - 06/04/12 at 02:27:22
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TalJechin wrote on 06/03/12 at 18:32:41:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/03/12 at 15:55:17:
Having done the research, I agree. I was wrong. Mac and Mc are both Scottish/Irish.

But you are still wrong to suggest this is a problem of translating languages. BOTH are Gaelic*, both use the Latin alphabet, and both mean the same thing! The Irish and Scottish historians agree on this.

_____
* This isn't a case of Scottish Gaelic versus Irish Gaelic. Mac, M' and Mc are the same regardless of which form of Gaelic is spoken. That's just a perpetuation of the myth that I believed. The two are identical. 


Yeah, I was wrong about that - misinterpreted the quote about "Anglicised forms" it's of course about the donald-part, not the mac-part...

IIrc, there was also an immigrant stream from Scotland to Northern Ireland, which eventually caused the religious conflicts in the area.

Anyway, "There is no difference between Mac, Mc, and M'." should settle the discussion - Mac vs Mc seem to be like discussing which is most correct: Mister Smith or Mr. Smith.


I don't know anything further about McCutcheon. But on the issue of Mc/Mac/M' I can comment (no references, but I was born in Ireland and lived there until I was 21). It's true that these variants all share the same derivation ("son of"). But it is not true that they are considered interchangeable. It seems to have been the case up until 200 years ago or so that most people (and this was not limited to any particular country) were casual about how their name was spelled, and would vary it themselves from time to time. E.g., I read some where recently that Labourdonnais used a few different versions of his name, as did McDonnell. But at some point spellings stabilized, and for a long time now (150 years?), MacCutcheon/McCutcheon (or MacDonald/McDonald, or MacCarthy/McCarthy) would no more be considered equivalent acceptable spellings than Smith/Smyth (or Tait/Tate), say.   
  
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Gilchrist is a legend
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #127 - 06/03/12 at 23:23:56
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I would at least think any topics related to the book, even if the book not published, is viable and very useful. The title of the book as I type this says "Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?" so, page count, cover design, variations covered should be considered topic topics (I do not know how to describe this exactly). And I am not the only one to ask about page count about books. I pre-ordered this specific book, so of course I am eager to know what exactly will be in it, and would want to prepare myself to study this book based on studying certain variations first.

If I am familiar with an opening which a book covers, I never study it in order, but in an order I make according to which chapters are most relevant. For example, now I know about the 6...Qa5 Winawer variation more than if I did not ask, and I will plan myself to study the line 6...Qa5 7. Bd2 Qa4 4. Qb1 when I get the book, then rest of 6...Qa5 Winawer, followed by rest of Winawer, then the Steinitz, then MacCutcheon, then Tarrasch, Advance, etc. regardless of the chapter order in the book. This would be chapter order I would read (first to last) based on the excerpt's Table of Contents: 11, 8, 7, 13, 15, 14, 5, 6, 4, 2, 3, 1, 12, 9, 10, 16, 17.
  

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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #126 - 06/03/12 at 23:11:07
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/03/12 at 19:06:14:
I was for some reason told by someone on another thread of a book where I discussed with another on the delivery and shipping of the same book in the thread title that discussing delivery/shipping was "off-topic"  (which I will ignore), but why is this topic not considered off-topic by now with regards to the current title of the thread which is the book Play the French 4th Edition?



You're right, the discussion of names is off-topic. I will split off the discussion later in the week when I return to my home computer.
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #125 - 06/03/12 at 21:48:38
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I have sometimes thought that there should be a separate forum rubric called something like "Salivating and Speculating (about forthcoming repertoire/play the X products)".  Who knows, maybe one day people will sometimes have occasion to post, "Doesn't that really belong in S&S?".
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #124 - 06/03/12 at 20:39:58
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/03/12 at 19:18:51:
That was a very creative attempt of sarcasm, but actually I asked about variations in 6...Qa5 Winawer and 4. e5 Steinitz. But, truly that is more off-topic than discussing surnames, full stops after titles, and punctuation than the book in the Play the French 4th Edition thread.

And in the previous thread I was referring to, the first post to discuss delivery/shipping was a moderator (dom), to which I responded in the discussion about the moderator's delivery and order of the book, when I was told by a non-moderator that only I was somehow discussing off-topic. Or is it off-topic only if I discuss something?


You always ask how many pages any given book will be. And then follow up wondering what variations will be dealt with in how many pages, long before the book is even out. That is of course so uninteresting that we tend to discuss just about anything else remotely related, while waiting for it to actually be available...  Grin
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #123 - 06/03/12 at 19:18:51
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That was a very creative attempt of sarcasm, but actually I asked about variations in 6...Qa5 Winawer and 4. e5 Steinitz. But, truly that is more off-topic than discussing surnames, full stops after titles, and punctuation than the book in the Play the French 4th Edition thread.

And in the previous thread I was referring to, the first post to discuss delivery/shipping was a moderator (dom), to which I responded in the discussion about the moderator's delivery and order of the book, when I was told by a non-moderator that only I was somehow discussing off-topic. Or is it off-topic only if I discuss something?
  

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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #122 - 06/03/12 at 19:12:59
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Gilchrist is a legend wrote on 06/03/12 at 19:06:14:
I was for some reason told by someone on another thread of a book where I discussed with another on the delivery and shipping of the same book in the thread title that discussing delivery/shipping was "off-topic"  (which I will ignore), but why is this topic not considered off-topic by now with regards to the current title of the thread which is the book Play the French 4th Edition?


I agree it's off topic. 

Let's get back to Gilchrist asking about how many pages, full stops, !, ?, and commas we can expect in the book.
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #121 - 06/03/12 at 19:06:14
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I was for some reason told by someone on another thread of a book where I discussed with another on the delivery and shipping of the same book in the thread title that discussing delivery/shipping was "off-topic"  (which I will ignore), but why is this topic not considered off-topic by now with regards to the current title of the thread which is the book Play the French 4th Edition?
  

Creo lo que creo no importa lo que creen los demás.
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #120 - 06/03/12 at 18:59:50
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TalJechin wrote on 06/03/12 at 18:32:41:

Anyway, "There is no difference between Mac, Mc, and M'." should settle the discussion - Mac vs Mc seem to be like discussing which is most correct: Mister Smith or Mr. Smith.


Ah good, so now if I have trouble recalling whether it is (GM) Neil McDonald or Neil MacDonald, I can just write one or the other -- no need to take into account what the person himself uses.  Really?
Don't see the parallel to Mr./Mister (or Dr./Doctor or Sgt./Sergeant etc.).
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #119 - 06/03/12 at 18:32:41
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/03/12 at 15:55:17:
Having done the research, I agree. I was wrong. Mac and Mc are both Scottish/Irish.

But you are still wrong to suggest this is a problem of translating languages. BOTH are Gaelic*, both use the Latin alphabet, and both mean the same thing! The Irish and Scottish historians agree on this.

_____
* This isn't a case of Scottish Gaelic versus Irish Gaelic. Mac, M' and Mc are the same regardless of which form of Gaelic is spoken. That's just a perpetuation of the myth that I believed. The two are identical. 


Yeah, I was wrong about that - misinterpreted the quote about "Anglicised forms" it's of course about the donald-part, not the mac-part...

IIrc, there was also an immigrant stream from Scotland to Northern Ireland, which eventually caused the religious conflicts in the area.

Anyway, "There is no difference between Mac, Mc, and M'." should settle the discussion - Mac vs Mc seem to be like discussing which is most correct: Mister Smith or Mr. Smith.
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #118 - 06/03/12 at 16:14:07
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John Lindsay McCutcheon's father was born in Ireland in 1821.
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #117 - 06/03/12 at 15:55:17
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Having done the research, I agree. I was wrong. Mac and Mc are both Scottish/Irish.

But you are still wrong to suggest this is a problem of translating languages. BOTH are Gaelic*, both use the Latin alphabet, and both mean the same thing! The Irish and Scottish historians agree on this.




_____
* This isn't a case of Scottish Gaelic versus Irish Gaelic. Mac, M' and Mc are the same regardless of which form of Gaelic is spoken. That's just a perpetuation of the myth that I believed. The two are identical. 



  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #116 - 06/03/12 at 15:26:34
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Yeah, but both cases are about changing one language's spelling into another language's spelling pattern...

Found this btw:
Quote:
One fact needs to be recognized immediately. There is no difference between Mac, Mc, and M'. You cannot say one form is Scottish and one is Irish. It becomes obvious that Mc and M' are both merely shortened forms of Mac, which is the originally Gaelic form that has come to stand for 'descendant of'. Originally the 'Mac' meant 'son of', and the 'O' stood for 'grandson of'. Today both simply mean 'descendant of', or perhaps more generally in some cases 'follower of'. (The latter is more often ascribed to 'Gil' names like Gilmartin or Kilmartin, coming from the Gaelic 'giolla'). Census records often use the shortened forms of Mac, it simply saved time and space, as in the census records shown in this book.

http://www.irishroots.com/id4608.htm
  
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Re: C00-C19: Play the French 4th edition?
Reply #115 - 06/03/12 at 14:37:35
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No, Taljechin.

The Korchnoi spelling is mooted by the fact it's a transliteration from the known correct spelling in Cyrillic. Корчной is correct. The most common transliteration into English is Korchnoi. Other languages have other ways of converting the letters, hence the "confusion" in databases.

Mac is generally Scottish while Mc is generally Irish. But there is cross-cultural mingling that confuses things. The Irish and Scots have always traded with each other. Some don't know this, but the patron saint of Ireland was born in Scotland.

Any Glasgow Celtic fan knows the Irish and Scots are closely related. So while the general rule that Mac is Scottish while Mc is Irish is true, there are Mc's in Scotland and Macs in Ireland.
  
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