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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called? (Read 15771 times)
TN
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #24 - 03/16/10 at 21:17:17
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Quoted from the aforementioned article:

Quote:
After 3…b5?! White should try 4 Nc3. For example, a) when 4…b4 to avoid capture allows 5 Qa4+ with strong play in view of 5…c6 6 Qxb4 and now if 6…e5 which looks sharp, but with time can be easily rebuffed by the safe 7 Qa4 with advantage to White. b) 4…c6 5 Qb3 (after 5 dxc6, White wins a pawn, but Black does get some play although after 5…b4 6 Na4 Nxc6 7 Nf3 Bg4 8 Nc5 Bxf3 9 exf3 Qxd4 10 Qc2 with the superior chances) 5…Nxd5 6 Nf3 is a little better for White.


4.Nf3 isn't bad either, simply asking Black what he has gained from 3...b5, e.g. 4...Bb7 5.e3 a6 6.a4 b4 7.Nbd2 Nd5 8.e4 or 8.Nc4 with an advantage for White in either case.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #23 - 03/16/10 at 20:45:20
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Gary Lane wrote an interesting response to my query about 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cd5 b5. You can find it on chesscafe.com
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #22 - 02/20/10 at 15:06:28
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I'm not sure what the specific equaliser is meant to be- there are probably a few.  7...Bf6 8.d4 and I'm not sure that Black equalises fully.  Perhaps instead 7...0-0 8.0-0-0 which is roughly equal.  5...Nc6 and 5...Bb4 are the main alternatives.   

Perhaps predictably, Fritz likes the greedy 5...Qd4 which would make approaches with f2-f3 quite strong.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #21 - 02/20/10 at 10:53:11
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Nice one.  Grin
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #20 - 02/20/10 at 07:56:12
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/20/10 at 00:18:59:
1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 dxe4 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Qe2 is also closely related to an Englund Gambit line (1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 4.Qd5 b6).  The major difference is that Black has locked in the queen's bishop with ...e6 (in the aforementioned Englund Gambit line, 5.e3?! is hardly critical) and so can't play ...Bg4 encouraging f2-f3 at an inopportune moment.   As a result White has full compensation here.

I recall that the b2-b3 approaches in the 1.e4 d5 2.Qe2 Scandinavian line don't work, because Black can play ...Nc6-d4 before White gets the chance to castle queenside- again the key is in the omission of ...e6, a tempo that Black can spend more wisely.


In the first line, is 5...Be7 6.Ne4 Ne4 7.Qe4 Bf6 meant to be the equaliser? This is a serious question, by the way.

I agree with you on the second point, although my comments on 2.Qe2 and 2.Ne2 were not meant to be taken seriously. Wink

PS: My post is far too serious. Apparently I need to lighten up a bit. 

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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #19 - 02/20/10 at 00:18:59
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1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 dxe4 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.Qe2 is also closely related to an Englund Gambit line (1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 4.Qd5 b6).  The major difference is that Black has locked in the queen's bishop with ...e6 (in the aforementioned Englund Gambit line, 5.e3?! is hardly critical) and so can't play ...Bg4 encouraging f2-f3 at an inopportune moment.   As a result White has full compensation here.

I recall that the b2-b3 approaches in the 1.e4 d5 2.Qe2 Scandinavian line don't work, because Black can play ...Nc6-d4 before White gets the chance to castle queenside- again the key is in the omission of ...e6, a tempo that Black can spend more wisely.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #18 - 02/19/10 at 17:31:40
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TN wrote on 02/19/10 at 04:43:48:


It also works against the French: 1.e4 e6 2.g4 d5?! (the Polish Grob with 2...b5! is best, when 3.a4 Bb7 4.Bg2 b4 is equal) 3.Bg2! de4 4.Nc3 and Black has blocked his light-squared bishop with ...e6. Already 4...Bd7 5.Be4 Bc6 is probably forced, when 6.d4 is a superb Grob Knox for White.


I had a good laugh reading this thread, but I think the French idea is actually cute.
It reminds me of 1.e4 e6 2.b3 d5 3.Bb2 de4: 4.Nc3 Nf6 when white often plays g4 at some moment.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #17 - 02/19/10 at 14:23:13
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Ah, I stated the wrong move-order.

I meant 1.e4 d5 2.Qe2 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.Nxe4 e5 (borrowed from the Englund Gambit line 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Qe7 4.Nc3 Nxe5 5.e4!).  Black follows with 5...Nf6 and should have equality.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #16 - 02/19/10 at 10:33:47
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SWJediknight wrote on 02/19/10 at 10:16:19:
The reversed Zilbermints Gambit can be used against the Scandinavian: 1.e4 d5 2.Ne2 (avoiding 2.Nc3 d4) with the idea 2...dxe4 3.Nc3.

I proposed 2. Qe2 earlier, since 2...dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.Qb5+! is good for White, and 3...Qd4 4.f3 likewise.  Unfortunately Black simply develops: 3...Nf6 4.Nxe4 Nc6 and is at least equal.

Not all of Lev's ideas are junk by the way.  1.f4 g5 is harder to refute than I originally assumed (I eventually settled for 2.fxg5 h6 3.d4 as White's best counter, 3.g6 leading to just a small advantage), and 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nge7 is only clearly worse for Black in one line (4.Nc3!)- many other responses give Black a decent game.  But on the other hand, 1.g4 d5 2.e4?! is just unsound, indeed it is probably worse for White than 1.d4 e5 is for Black.


Ludicrous! 2.Ne2, the reversed Zilbermints Gambit, is bad due to 2...Nf6 3.ed5 (3.e5 gains too much space and is therefore cowardice, e.g. 3...Nd7 4.d4 Nb6 with a great French/Caro; 3.d3 de4 is just bad) 3...b5! and we have another reversed Zilbermints Benoni of the Zilbermints Gambit, but this time the extra move Ne2 blocks the f1-bishop and prevents any Qh5 Scholar's Mate tricks. 

2.Qe2 de4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Ne4 Nc6 is better for White after 5.Nf6 gf6 6.c3 e5 7.g3! due to his superior pawn structure. The only way to equalise is with cowardice: 3...g6! 4.Ne4 Bg7 5.Nf3 b6! and Black is fine.

1.f4 g5 is well met by 2.e4! gf4 3.d4, which I will henceforth call the TN King's Counter-Gambit of the Zilbermints Gambit. Yes, it really is a TN.

Please excuse me now: accepting all those pawn sacrifices gave me indigestion.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #15 - 02/19/10 at 10:16:19
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The reversed Zilbermints Gambit can be used against the Scandinavian: 1.e4 d5 2.Ne2 (avoiding 2.Nc3 d4) with the idea 2...dxe4 3.Nc3.

I proposed 2. Qe2 earlier, since 2...dxe4 3.Nc3 Bf5 4.Qb5+! is good for White, and 3...Qd4 4.f3 likewise.  Unfortunately Black simply develops: 3...Nf6 4.Nxe4 Nc6 and is at least equal.

Not all of Lev's ideas are junk by the way.  1.f4 g5 is harder to refute than I originally assumed (I eventually settled for 2.fxg5 h6 3.d4 as White's best counter, 3.g6 leading to just a small advantage), and 1.d4 e5 2.dxe5 Nc6 3.Nf3 Nge7 is only clearly worse for Black in one line (4.Nc3!)- many other responses give Black a decent game.  But on the other hand, 1.g4 d5 2.e4?! is just unsound, indeed it is probably worse for White than 1.d4 e5 is for Black.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #14 - 02/19/10 at 06:43:21
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TN wrote on 02/19/10 at 04:44:45:
Seriously, can we move this thread to General Chess?

I don't want it!   

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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #13 - 02/19/10 at 04:44:45
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Seriously, can we move this thread to General Chess?
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #12 - 02/19/10 at 04:43:48
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Gambit wrote on 02/19/10 at 03:52:39:
So now the Zilbermints Grob is a nice counter against the Caro-Kann? Now that is interesting!


It also works against the French: 1.e4 e6 2.g4 d5?! (the Polish Grob with 2...b5! is best, when 3.a4 Bb7 4.Bg2 b4 is equal) 3.Bg2! de4 4.Nc3 and Black has blocked his light-squared bishop with ...e6. Already 4...Bd7 5.Be4 Bc6 is probably forced, when 6.d4 is a superb Grob Knox for White.
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #11 - 02/19/10 at 03:52:39
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So now the Zilbermints Grob is a nice counter against the Caro-Kann? Now that is interesting!
  
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Re: What is 1 d4 d5 2 c4 Nf6 3 cxd5 b5!? called?
Reply #10 - 02/18/10 at 23:39:38
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TN wrote on 02/18/10 at 20:31:48:

@linksspringer
After 1.e4 c6 2.g4 d5, 3.e5 is inaccurate due to 3...g5! when the e5-pawn is chronically weak. White should prefer 3.Bg2! de4 4.Nc3 when we have a Zilbermints Grob where Black has played the horrible move ...c6.

Of course! Thanks, I stand corrected. 
Once again the chesspub forum proves to be the place for cutting edge theory!
  
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