Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) starting out the sicilian (Read 16821 times)
BobbyDigital80
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 355
Joined: 05/15/08
Gender: Male
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #31 - 07/01/10 at 00:57:49
Post Tools
MartinC wrote on 03/10/10 at 16:41:26:
I think he mentions it thus in his books on the matches vs Karpov. Maybe not so much that he thought it bad for black as how well it suited Karpov Smiley

The e6/d6/Nc6 stuff is I think a little better vs the Keres because if nothing else you can get some milage from delaying Nf6 a few moves after playing h6. Doesn't stop h3 (or f3!) ideas but does stop h4. The Nge7 ideas are different too of course.

I must admit that just allowing the Keres does feel refreshingly honest Smiley

I guess the ideal, if people are preparing for you, could be to vary your move order a bit. Makes it much harder for anyone wanting to 'exploit' it.


I don't know why everyone is so afraid of the Keres attack. What's wrong after black plays 6...e5?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4906
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #30 - 03/13/10 at 00:46:58
Post Tools
You might recognize it from the sac ...   


[Event "Bled m"]
[Site ""]
[Date "1965.??.??"]
[Round "10"]
[White "Tal, Mikhail"]
[Black "Larsen, Bent"]
[Result "1-0"]
[NIC "SI 21.8"]
[ECO "B82"]
[PlyCount "73"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. Nc3 d6 6. Be3 Nf6 7. f4 Be7 8. Qf3 O-O
9. O-O-O Qc7 10. Ndb5 Qb8 11. g4 a6 12. Nd4 Nxd4 13. Bxd4 b5 14. g5 Nd7 15. Bd3 b4
16. Nd5 exd5 17. exd5 f5 18. Rde1 Rf7 19. h4 Bb7 20. Bxf5 Rxf5 21. Rxe7 Ne5 22. Qe4
Qf8 23. fxe5 Rf4 24. Qe3 Rf3 25. Qe2 Qxe7 26. Qxf3 dxe5 27. Re1 Rd8 28. Rxe5 Qd6
29. Qf4 Rf8 30. Qe4 b3 31. axb3 Rf1  32. Kd2 Qb4  33. c3 Qd6 34. Bc5 Qxc5 35. Re8 
Rf8 36. Qe6  Kh8 37. Qf7 1-0
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #29 - 03/13/10 at 00:34:40
Post Tools
Kyle, which line is Tal-Larsen?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4906
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #28 - 03/12/10 at 21:30:01
Post Tools
I suppose I was thinking of 8. a3 Be7 9. f4 d6 10. g4 (there's also 10. Qd2), which gets a column in ECO, but with no mention of ...d5.

By the way, I recall getting the impression a while back (e.g. from Winnen met het Siciliaans) that the Tal-Larsen line might be quite dangerous for Black if White stops for Rg1.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #27 - 03/12/10 at 21:20:30
Post Tools
Isn't g4 in the Classical met with ...d5 ?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4906
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #26 - 03/12/10 at 21:12:46
Post Tools
There is some aggressive a3 plus g4 stuff which I recall rearing its ugly head something like a decade ago in the Informant.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #25 - 03/12/10 at 20:36:08
Post Tools
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 03/12/10 at 07:50:50:
For me, the big question in this Taimanov move order is how Black intends to handle 7.Be2. Delchev does not cover independent lines in the classical approach (Be2 and Be3) where White refrains from castling kingside. 7.Be2 Nf6 8.a3!? (as covered in Dangerous Weapons: The Sicilian) poses very interesting problems. Black should probably be familiar with the Classical Scheveningen. The Scheveningen lines with 8...d6 may be Black's best, but Black's early commitment to a6 and Qc7 often seems to favor White despite the apparent loss of tempo with a3.

I don't get this, as ...a6 and ...Qc7 are very normal moves in the Classical Scheveningen, while a3 usually is only played as answer to ...b5. I admit that this transposition is not attractive to Scheveningen players who want to do without one or two of these moves and there are plenty of them.
Still I find it hard to believe that any player who prefers an aggressive setup like the Sozin or the Keres feels attracted to the Classical Scheveningen with a3. Possibly this shows nothing more that I haven't seen Dangerous Weapons in the Sicilian, which is true.

Another tricky transposition is 6...Nf6 (iso 6...a6) when Van Delft suggests the not so convincing 7.f4 d6 8.Qf3 Be7 9.0-0-0 0-0 which is another line of the Scheveningen, well known from Tal-Larsen, match 1965.

Perhaps most challenging is just 7.Bd3 after both 6...a6 and 6...Nf6. Playing a Classical Scheveningen with a tempo less cannot attract Black.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #24 - 03/12/10 at 07:50:50
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 03/12/10 at 01:31:35:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 03/11/10 at 04:33:59:
I am inclined to think that out of the three major "attacks" in the Scheveningen (Keres, English, and Sozin), Black can avoid entering two of them in their purest form through his chosen move order, but never all three:

normal Scheveningen: Keres
Taimanov 6.Be3 a6: English
Taimanov 6.Be3 Nf6: Sozin
Najdorf Scheveningen: English, Najdorf Sozin (i.e. main line Sozin in Najdorf, but no Velimirovic Attack et al)


Allowing the English Attack vs. the Taimanov might be most attractive after all: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nf6 8.0-0-0 Bb4 9.f3 and now 0-0 10.g4 b5 11.g5 Ne8!? Those knights on d6 and e5 seem to stop White's attack completely.
I have posted this line twice before, but I haven't seen a convincing antidote yet (and yes, I have tried to find one myself too).


For me, the big question in this Taimanov move order is how Black intends to handle 7.Be2. Delchev does not cover independent lines in the classical approach (Be2 and Be3) where White refrains from castling kingside. 7.Be2 Nf6 8.a3!? (as covered in Dangerous Weapons: The Sicilian) poses very interesting problems. Black should probably be familiar with the Classical Scheveningen. The Scheveningen lines with 8...d6 may be Black's best, but Black's early commitment to a6 and Qc7 often seems to favor White despite the apparent loss of tempo with a3. Maybe Black is OK, but there's a bit of risk involved. On the other hand, I think the risk runs both ways in that White must play aggressively to justify the move a3, so this might be a good approach for Black to play for a win in a sharp position. In some ways, it reminds me a little of the Grivas Sicilian (1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Qb6) in the sense that strong players like Godena and Grivas built tremendous scores as Black by outplaying players in sharp but slightly offbeat Scheveningen middlegames (where the queen often ends up on Qc7 after Be3).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10756
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #23 - 03/12/10 at 01:31:35
Post Tools
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 03/11/10 at 04:33:59:
I am inclined to think that out of the three major "attacks" in the Scheveningen (Keres, English, and Sozin), Black can avoid entering two of them in their purest form through his chosen move order, but never all three:

normal Scheveningen: Keres
Taimanov 6.Be3 a6: English
Taimanov 6.Be3 Nf6: Sozin
Najdorf Scheveningen: English, Najdorf Sozin (i.e. main line Sozin in Najdorf, but no Velimirovic Attack et al)


Allowing the English Attack vs. the Taimanov might be most attractive after all: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 Qc7 6.Be3 a6 7.Qd2 Nf6 8.0-0-0 Bb4 9.f3 and now 0-0 10.g4 b5 11.g5 Ne8!? Those knights on d6 and e5 seem to stop White's attack completely.
I have posted this line twice before, but I haven't seen a convincing antidote yet (and yes, I have tried to find one myself too).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #22 - 03/11/10 at 08:59:38
Post Tools
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/11/10 at 08:43:43:
I don't know whether the ...d6 anti Sicilians occur more often than ...e6 ones, but I'm pretty sure the Rossolimo has a very strong reputation compared to most others.  I don't really know why Black would allow it if he's going to play e6 anyway.


Yes, that is true. But under certain circumstances it could be a viable strategy. I know a few players that will play the open against 2. ... e6 and anti-sicilians against 2. ... d6, for instance.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #21 - 03/11/10 at 08:43:43
Post Tools
I don't know whether the ...d6 anti Sicilians occur more often than ...e6 ones, but I'm pretty sure the Rossolimo has a very strong reputation compared to most others.  I don't really know why Black would allow it if he's going to play e6 anyway.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schaakhamster
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 650
Joined: 05/13/08
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #20 - 03/11/10 at 08:40:11
Post Tools
Terribly enlighting, this thread. As a consequence I gave my opponent the choice to enter the Keres Attack in one of my correspondence chess games. He declined and played something else.

Another move order is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e6 :
Basicly allowing another set of anti-sicilians then after 2. ... e6. Might be interesting if you have another 2. ... d6 sicilian up your sleeves to keep the opponent guessing or if you are at ease with the d6 anti-sicilians and I can imagine that they crop up more often after 2. ... e6 (haven't done any reseacrh to back that up).

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #19 - 03/11/10 at 06:43:31
Post Tools
Btw, the most common move after 6.Be3 is 6...Nf6, which seems fine to me. White can't really play 7.g4 and the English attack hasn't scored terribly well recently in the following line:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cd4 4.Nd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 Nf6 7.f3 a6!? (less common, but perhaps better than 7...Be7) 8.Qd2 Be7 9.0-0-0 0-0 10.g4 Nd7!? 11.h4 Ne5 and Black seems to be doing well here.


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Smyslov_Fan
God Member
Correspondence fan
*****
Offline


Progress depends on the
unreasonable man. ~GBS

Posts: 6902
Joined: 06/15/05
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #18 - 03/11/10 at 06:26:18
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 03/11/10 at 02:12:29:
ChevyBanginStyle wrote on 03/10/10 at 23:58:38:
If Black does not want to commit the queen to c7 in the Scheveningen, I think he should play 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 d6 6.Be3 a6

With 7.Qd2 White may show that Black's fourth move is not ideal as 7...Bd7 8.0-0-0 has scored well lately and 7...Nf6 8.f3 is a variation of the English attack Black might not like.


Black does have an alternative to 7...Bd7 8.0-0-0 Rc8 which has scored horribly recently  in 8...Nge7, but that's not a terribly happy variation either. (I don't have any games in my db beyond 2003.)

Perhaps Black could play 7.Qd2 Nge7.  I've only found one master game that followed that path, but it doesn't seem to lose out of hand.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ChevyBanginStyle
Full Member
***
Offline


2 \infty & *CRUNCH*

Posts: 238
Joined: 01/03/10
Re: starting out the sicilian
Reply #17 - 03/11/10 at 05:06:10
Post Tools
Schaakhamster wrote on 03/11/10 at 04:47:16:
I'm wondering if we haven't scared the original poster away with all those move orders issues.  Smiley



LOL but it's the Sicilian after all! You can play the Dragon against everything or get serious.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo