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Normal Topic C03: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!? (Read 7872 times)
Paddy
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #7 - 03/21/10 at 18:25:54
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Markovich wrote on 03/17/10 at 17:42:12:
Characteristically good advice from Paddy, apart from which, c4 and a banzai attack is against White's queenside castled position is quite thematic in the French.  I dunno that it deserves '!?'.

@Paddy: Any particular form of the French appeal to you?


Thanks Markovich! 
When I was playing a lot of decent level corres chess in the BCCA as Black in the French I generally used the MacCutcheon against 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Bg5, 3...a6 vs the Tarrasch and ...Nc6 + ...Qb6 lines against 3 e5; the only time I tried the modern line 3 e5 c5 4 c3 Nc6 5 Nf3 Bd7 I lost, costing me the BCCA championship that year on tie break! Oh, the pain...

Not sure I'd play the Mac over the board though, especially these days; some of the modern lines feel really difficult. I've played the Classical with ...Be7 a few times OTB, with mixed results. I've also been playing the "Ax Dragon", with pretty decent results (got battered by GM Joe Gallagher though) and am intending to give my old favourite Alekhine a few outings in the coming months.
  
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #6 - 03/17/10 at 17:42:12
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Characteristically good advice from Paddy, apart from which, c4 and a banzai attack is against White's queenside castled position is quite thematic in the French.  I dunno that it deserves '!?'.

@Paddy: Any particular form of the French appeal to you?
  
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #5 - 03/17/10 at 16:21:08
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Raspje wrote on 03/17/10 at 15:45:55:
[quote author=5D7E644E5268737463110 link=1268605044/2#2 date=1268608874] (cut)

This is amazing stuff. I have been analysing the position with Rybka 3 for some time and came to the following conclusions:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Be7 4. e5 Nh6 5. Ndf3 c5 6. Bxh6 gxh6
7. Qd2 Nc6 8. Ne2 Qb6 9. O-O-O c4!?
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* {Logical, because you get a
spaceadvantage on the queenside and thus attacking chances. It does, however, take two
pawns to achieve this result.} 10. Qxh6 Nb4! {This really seems to be the best
move, forcing a concession by white.} 11. Nc3 (11. Kb1 Bd7 12. Qg7 O-O-O 13.
Qxf7 Nc6 14. Ka1 Qa5 15. c3 Kb8 16. Qf4 b5 17. Qd2 Ka8 18. Nf4 b4 19. cxb4 Bxb4
20. Qc1 Rb8 with compensation) 11... Bd7 12. Qg7 O-O-O (12... Rf8 13. Ng5!) 13. Qxf7 Nc6
14. Qf4 Rhf8 15. Qh6 (15. Qe3 Be8 16. h4 Bg6 with compensation) 15... Kb8 16. a3 Qa5 17. Ne2
b5 18. Kb1 b4 19. axb4 Nxb4 20. Nc3 Ka8 with compensation. Black thus seems do be doing allright after 9...c4!?, although Rybka 3 at first loves white position (+0,8). Later it realises black has genuine compensation.

This is fairly normal. In general:
A) the nearer to the start of the game, the less the engine's evaluation is meaningful;
B) the evaluation of opening lines with blocked centres should never be taken at face value. As Black, I had my best results in correspondence chess with the King's Indian and the French, against opponents who were clearly placing far too much reliance on their engines.
C) engines are now getting better at evaluating long term compensation for sacrifices or structural concessions, but it is still a relative weak point; it pays to push the engine down lines that seem worth exploring to our human judgement, rather than leave the engine on a long time to think for itself - in the latter case the results can often be interesting, but should never be trusted 100%.

I think the above is true even with the latest engines.
  
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Raspje
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #4 - 03/17/10 at 15:45:55
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Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/14/10 at 23:21:14:
Thx Raspje, probably should have looked through the older threads first.
Psakhis is the only french source I got, but 4...c5 is not covered there, so your work is so far my only reference. So we´ll have to do some work by ourselves.

So far I still think that 5.Ndf3 with taking the knight must be critical, because it creates such a huge structural damage to blacks pawn structure. The analysis in the french section following 5.Ndf3 Nf5 looks also very promising for white, much better than the positions white might get after 5.Nb3 according to your work. But my 7.dxc5 probably was too optimistic.

Following your analysis I had a look at 5.Ndf3 c5 6.Bxh6 gxh 7.Qd2 Nc6 8.Ne2 Qb6 and now instead of your 9.Qxh6 I am tempted by 9.000!? with the possible continuation 9...Bd7 10.Qxh6 000 11.c3 Rdg8 12.h4 and I like white.

Castling long may be unusual in the french, but it is an unusual line and a hasty attack bears dangers for black, because his king is not too secure. On the other hand going short seems dangerous because black is ready to attack on the g-file with his rooks.


This is amazing stuff. I have been analysing the position with Rybka 3 for some time and came to the following conclusions:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Be7 4. e5 Nh6 5. Ndf3 c5 6. Bxh6 gxh6
7. Qd2 Nc6 8. Ne2 Qb6 9. O-O-O c4!?
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* {Logical, because you get a
spaceadvantage on the queenside and thus attacking chances. It does, however, take two
pawns to achieve this result.} 10. Qxh6 Nb4! {This really seems to be the best
move, forcing a concession by white.} 11. Nc3 (11. Kb1 Bd7 12. Qg7 O-O-O 13.
Qxf7 Nc6 14. Ka1 Qa5 15. c3 Kb8 16. Qf4 b5 17. Qd2 Ka8 18. Nf4 b4 19. cxb4 Bxb4
20. Qc1 Rb8 with compensation) 11... Bd7 12. Qg7 O-O-O (12... Rf8 13. Ng5!) 13. Qxf7 Nc6
14. Qf4 Rhf8 15. Qh6 (15. Qe3 Be8 16. h4 Bg6 with compensation) 15... Kb8 16. a3 Qa5 17. Ne2
b5 18. Kb1 b4 19. axb4 Nxb4 20. Nc3 Ka8 with compensation. Black thus seems do be doing allright after 9...c4!?, although Rybka 3 at first loves white position (+0,8). Later it realises black has genuine compensation.






  
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #3 - 03/16/10 at 16:51:03
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Lou_Cyber wrote on 03/14/10 at 22:17:24:
Hi,
this is about a game I played last week. I might be rated 1800, my opponent about 2150. I knew he would be playing 3...Be7 so I went with preparation into the game:

[White "Lou_Cyber"]
[Black "N.N."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C03"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Be7 4. e5 Nh6!? (Main line runs 4...c5) 5. Ndf3 c5!? (Main line is Nf5. This move is not mentioned in the french section, and I can´t find any comments on it in my books. In my database I can find only 4 games - 3 won by black!) 6. Bxh6 gxh6
(cut)
(Black pays a stiff price for the bishop - a doubled pawn on the h-file) 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8.Nh3 (Following the recommendations of the french section) Qb6 (I´m not at all happy with the opening. Black has pressure on the a7-g1 diagonal, might use the opened g-file, threatens Qxb2 and the pawn e5 is weak.) 9. Qc1 Nc6 10. Bd3 Bd7 11. O-O Bf8 (This looks wrong. The bishop might belong to g7, but now black loses the initiative. Faster would have been Nd4 or Be4 on this move or earlier. The remaining moves are not relevant for the evaluation of the opening and go without comment) 12. Nf4 O-O-O 13. Nh5 f5 14. c3 Qc7
15. Qe3 Kb8 16. Rfe1 Ne7 17. Nd4 Ng6 18. Rac1 Qb6 19. b4 Be8 20. a4 Bxa4 21.
Ra1 Bd7 22. Ra3 Be7 23. Rea1 f4 24. Nxf4 Bg5 25. Bxg6 hxg6 26. Rxa7 Rdf8 27.
Ndxe6 1-0

How should white continue after 5...c5? My (old) engine wants to play c3, but I don´t like it. Is it perhaps ok for black to allow Bxh6?


I can't answer your question directly but I would advise not being so sure that Bxh6 gxh6 is automatically going to be better for White. There are some modern lines of the Advance variation where Black allows this and is able to show that his bishop pair, g-file and generally dynamic play is sufficient compensation for the missing g-pawn and doubled h-pawns. After all, the rest of his camp is in good shape, including the usual solid French centre.

Granted, in the Advance lines the black bishop is usually on f8 and can go to g7, but even so...

3...Be7 is still a comparatively "young" line and I am surre that there is still much to be discovered and tested - for both sides - before we can come to reliable conclusions.
  
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #2 - 03/14/10 at 23:21:14
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Thx Raspje, probably should have looked through the older threads first.
Psakhis is the only french source I got, but 4...c5 is not covered there, so your work is so far my only reference. So we´ll have to do some work by ourselves.

So far I still think that 5.Ndf3 with taking the knight must be critical, because it creates such a huge structural damage to blacks pawn structure. The analysis in the french section following 5.Ndf3 Nf5 looks also very promising for white, much better than the positions white might get after 5.Nb3 according to your work. But my 7.dxc5 probably was too optimistic.

Following your analysis I had a look at 5.Ndf3 c5 6.Bxh6 gxh 7.Qd2 Nc6 8.Ne2 Qb6 and now instead of your 9.Qxh6 I am tempted by 9.000!? with the possible continuation 9...Bd7 10.Qxh6 000 11.c3 Rdg8 12.h4 and I like white.

Castling long may be unusual in the french, but it is an unusual line and a hasty attack bears dangers for black, because his king is not too secure. On the other hand going short seems dangerous because black is ready to attack on the g-file with his rooks.
  
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Re: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
Reply #1 - 03/14/10 at 23:00:21
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Hello Lou,

This topic has been covered before http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1251239655. My conclusion was that 5.Nb3! was the critical test of 4...Nh6, because it prevents 5...c5 and threatens 6.Bxh6. I'll repeat my analysis (with some help from Rybka 3):

D.  5. Nb3! (Critical because it threatens 6.Bxh6 and prevents  ...c5.)  Nf5 6. Nf3 b6! 7.g4! (7. Bd3 Ba6=) 7... Nh4 8. Nxh4 Bxh4 9. g5 Bxg5! 10. Qg4 Bxc1 11. Qxg7 Rf8 12. Rxc1 (12. Nxc1 c5 13. c3 cxd4 14. cxd4 Qh4 15. Ne2 Nc6 16. O-O-O Qxf2 17. Qg3 Qxg3 18. hxg3 Ba6 19. Rxh7 O-O-O=) 12... Bb7 13. Qxh7 Nd7 14. Bd3 Qe7 with compensation.
  
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C03: Tarrasch 3...Be7 4.e5 Nh6 5.Ndf3 c5!?
03/14/10 at 22:17:24
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Hi,
this is about a game I played last week. I might be rated 1800, my opponent about 2150. I knew he would be playing 3...Be7 so I went with preparation into the game:

[White "Lou_Cyber"]
[Black "N.N."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C03"]
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Be7 4. e5 Nh6!? (Main line runs 4...c5) 5. Ndf3 c5!? (Main line is Nf5. This move is not mentioned in the french section, and I can´t find any comments on it in my books. In my database I can find only 4 games - 3 won by black!) 6. Bxh6 gxh6

* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*


(Black pays a stiff price for the bishop - a doubled pawn on the h-file) 7. dxc5 Bxc5 8.Nh3 (Following the recommendations of the french section) Qb6 (I´m not at all happy with the opening. Black has pressure on the a7-g1 diagonal, might use the opened g-file, threatens Qxb2 and the pawn e5 is weak.) 9. Qc1 Nc6 10. Bd3 Bd7 11. O-O Bf8 (This looks wrong. The bishop might belong to g7, but now black loses the initiative. Faster would have been Nd4 or Be4 on this move or earlier. The remaining moves are not relevant for the evaluation of the opening and go without comment) 12. Nf4 O-O-O 13. Nh5 f5 14. c3 Qc7
15. Qe3 Kb8 16. Rfe1 Ne7 17. Nd4 Ng6 18. Rac1 Qb6 19. b4 Be8 20. a4 Bxa4 21.
Ra1 Bd7 22. Ra3 Be7 23. Rea1 f4 24. Nxf4 Bg5 25. Bxg6 hxg6 26. Rxa7 Rdf8 27.
Ndxe6 1-0

How should white continue after 5...c5? My (old) engine wants to play c3, but I don´t like it. Is it perhaps ok for black to allow Bxh6?
« Last Edit: 07/23/11 at 16:01:19 by dom »  
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