Yes, I've had this line in one of my own games.  5...Nf6 6.e5 Ne4 transposes to a line normally reached via 4...Nf6 5.e5 Ne4 6.Bd3 d5.   White should probably continue 7.0-0 (7.cxd4 Bb4+ followed by 8...Bg4 is good for Black), offering a gambit with 7...dxc3 8.Nxc3 Nxc3 9.bxc3, or alternatively if 7...Be7 White continues with 8.cxd4 and can play to undermine the strong knight on e4.  I think both 7...dxc3 and 7...Be7 probably equalise for Black, but at least play is far less sterile than in Capablanca's line.

I think Black has a few other ways to equalise against this line (5...Bg4, 5...Be6, 5...Be7) but I haven't found any ways for Black to suck the life out of the position.

It depends on your level of play.  At the highest levels 4.Ng5 is certainly a better bet than 4.d4, and it worked well for Nigel Short even against 2700+ players.  But the databases I've seen consistently show 4.d4 scoring more highly than 4.Ng5, so the inverse may well be true below a certain level.

I agree with MNb regarding the 6.0-0 gambit in the Italian, it's sound enough and it leads to interesting and equal play.

Re. the Goring Gambit, I generally avoid the Capablanca endgame after 4...d5 with the offbeat 5.Bd3, but I'm not sure if it would work at 2200+.  The critical "declining" line runs 5...dxe4 6.Bxe4 Nf6 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.0-0 = (an improvement on 8.Nxd4 when 8...Bd7 and 8...c5 are good for Black), but it is not clear if White can generate many winning chances at high levels.  More theoretically critical is if Black takes the bait with 5...dxc3 6.exd5 cxb2 (6...Qxd5 7.Nxc3 is fine for White) 7.Bxb2 Qxd5 8.0-0 and White has a lot of pressure for the two pawns, but it's not clear if it's enough.  Otherwise there is Martin Voigt's preference 5.exd5 Qxd5 6.cxd4 Bg4 7.Nc3 Bb4 8.a3 (instead of 8.Be2 Bxf3 9.Bxf3 Qc4), but I don't fully trust it.  

You could also consider using the Danish move-order 3.c3 with the idea 3...dxc3 4.Nxc3 which is probably White's soundest way of playing this opening system, and certainly the soundest way to avoid Capablanca's ending in view of the line 3...d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 Nc6 6.Be3.

Reverse wrote on 03/24/10 at 14:38:11:


I understand and feel the same way.  And for a long time I explored paths in the Two Knights with d4.   
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2005/12/notes-on-two-knights-wi...
But I have to tell you, you will be much better off playing the Italian in such a way that it allows the Ng5 line instead (e.g.: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5).  Yes, Black is the one who gets to play a gambit, but you get interesting and sharp play for both sides.  I put together a repertoire on this from online sources:
http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/kenilworthian/2010/02/1e4-e5-2nf3-white-reper...
I think it will give you better chances than the d4 lines.

Yes. I have not looked at 5..d5 yet.Well, has anyone solved the Keidanz variation? I have my computer analyzing it right now but i figure it will take years to do so.

5..Ne4 is strange. My database doesn't have but maybe 15 games with it by players over 2200. 

Line 1: 6.0-0
This has been played several times:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Ne4 6. O-O Be7 7. Re1 d5 8. exd6 Nxd6 9. Bd5 Nf5 10. Bxc6 bxc6 11. g4 Nh6 12. Bxh6 gxh6 13. Qxd4  This looks ugly. Not sure why it has been played more than once.

Line 2: 6.Bd5
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Ne4 6. Bd5 Nc5 7. O-O Ne6 8. Re1 Be7 9.Nbd2 d6 10. exd6 Qxd6 11.c4 0-0 

I am not sure what white gets if black just plays 11..dxc3 instead.


Line 3: 6.Qe2

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Ne4 6. Qe2 Nc5 7. O-O Ne6 8. Bxe6 dxe6 9. Rd1 Be7 10.Be3 or c3

This seems to be the best of the options. White at least has something to play for here.

As of Now I just reached 2200 USCF.  Something happened to me as a child so i must play a gambit against 1..e5, so no Ruy or scotch.  Anyway, the goring gambit was bread and butter but in my last tournament I faced capablanca's 4..d5 twice against. One of my opponents was 2368 and the other 2287. I don't feel like i can win if strong players force me into that endgame. 

So I will look at the chesscafe.com article, but what about this 5.e5 move. Do you know guys know anywhere to find analysis on this move? One of my students played a game against it a few months back. after 5.e5 Ne4 6. Bd5 Nc5 7.0-0 Be7. White soon started playing weird moves cause he was rated 1400.  So what is the best continuation? 6.Bd5, 0-0 or Qe2?

Yep, it's a game of chess.  So either study up and play good moves or revert to 5.e5, which is more likely to offer winning chances above 2100.  Theoretically there is no real advantage either way, but 5.e5 demands more sophistication from both players.  

If you want a theoretical +=, play the Spanish.  But below 2100 any form of the Italian, including the one you're playing, is just as likely to score for you.

So. I want to play the max lange, but I don't know what to play against the anti-max Lange, i.e. 5..Nxe4. Should I move on to another opening? Is there enough play in the typical lines to play for a win as white?