Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C37: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ? (Read 61020 times)
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
Reply #6 - 06/03/10 at 21:40:13
Post Tools
Master Om; Last post because arguing against 16 cores
is very tiring.

Your analysis makes 3 claims:
11...Qg4+ is better than 11...Qg6+
11...Qg6+ is doubtful
11.Be5 is the best move.

RE
a) 11..Qg4
11...Qg4 is actually a good move.
Though your line 12.Qxg4,Nxg4 13.Be5+,Kg8 
14.Bxh8 the move 14....Nc6 never has been tried.
14....Bh6 was the usual move, when white has showed compensation in fairly high level games after 15.Nc3!?.
Your innovation may be stronger, but a serious game with this move between strong players would be more convincing.

11...Qg6+ is doubtful
I advice you to take a good human look at the endgame at the end of your variation with 17.Rxf5 iso 17.Qh5. This position actually has been played
and the endgame is less pleasant for white than you probably think now. In the game Black showed good technique and won.
I will also add that black can reach this position by a slightly different move-order that takes away whites possible 17.Qh5.

11.Be5 is the best move.
Well now, you give a very long variation starting off with 
11...Qxf3 12.Rxf3,Be7 that continues another 6 or 7 moves. 
But I think that after the Queen have come off, 12...Bg7 [Leisebein[ is better than 12....Be7 (which seems your innovation and not necessary a strong one), and black still may claim a substantial advantage.
Anyway I found the game Mordoch-Hannisson, 2003 convincing enough:
12...Bg7 13.Nc3,d6! 14.Bxf6,Bxf6 15.Nd5,Bf5!
16.Rxf5,Ke6 -/+ (the point) 
White is not much better off than in other variations,
and is still fighting for a draw.
So one way or another, the double Muzio is not advisable, as DragonSlayer and NMB allready pointed out.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Master Om
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 187
Joined: 02/20/10
Re: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
Reply #5 - 06/03/10 at 17:13:27
Post Tools
micawber wrote on 06/03/10 at 16:46:46:
@Dragonslayer

Regarding the variation 8.Bxf7, Kxf7 9.d4,Qf5!
Iso 10.Qe2 I think you mean 10.Bxf4,Nf6 11.Qe2 (because 10.Qe2,Bh6 looks -/+ to me).

Incidentally, McDonald in his KG-book, claimed ...Qf5 as his own 'invention'. And former ChessPub author Paul Motwani was duped into believing him, and praising his analytic work in his annotations to one of the KG games.  Huh


10.Bxf4,Nf6 11.Qe2 (10.Qe2,Bh6!? -/+)
Actually white has build up a very decent score in this variation. But this is mainly Black often went wrong at the next move.
Black has:
a) 11....Qe6 (dubious)
b) 11....d6 (somewhat better for Black)
c) 11....Qg6! best imho.

a)11....Qe6 12.Be5,Bg7 13.Nc3,Rf8
a1) 14.Ne4,Kg8 15.Bxf6,Bxf6 16.Rxf6 with compensation (Venus-Witmaack, 2007)
a2) 14.Nd5! (best) Qxd5 15.Bxf6,Bxf6 16.Rxf6,Kxf6 17.Rf1+ , Kg6 18.Rxf8 and white has sufficient compensation after both 18...Qe6 and 18...Qxd4.
The latter was played in Gysi-Leisebein, 1997.
Leisebein's annotation shows that the position offers equal chances.
Even though from a theoretical point of view the ...Qe6 offers equal chances, black has lost a number of games by taking to many risks defending for a win.

c) 11...Qg6! (best) 12.Be5,Be7 13.Nc3,d6! 14.Bxf6,Bxf6
15.Nd5,Bf5 -/+ (Leisebein-Gysi, corr., 1998).

There is better Move at move 11 for black .11.....Qg4!!
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2010.06.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8.
Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Qe2 Qg4 12. Qxg4 Nxg4 13. Be5+ Kg8 14.
Bxh8 Nc6 -+ Black wins here.11..... Qg6 !? is not that good as Qg4 as per my analysis. As [Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2010.06.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8.
Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Qe2 Qg6 12. Be5 Be7 (12... Bg7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Nd5 Bf5 16. Nxf6 Qxf6 17.Qh5!!) 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6 Bxf6 15. Nd5 Bf5 16.
Nxf6 Qxf6 17. Qh5!!(17. Rxf5 Qxf5 18. Rf1 Qxf1+ 19. Qxf1+ Ke7 20. Qb5!?
Best is 11.Be5!
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*
and game would continue.
[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2010.06.03"]
[Round "?"]
[White "?"]
[Black "?"]
[Result "*"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8.
Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5 10. Bxf4 Nf6 11. Be5 Qxf3 12. Rxf3 Be7 13. Nc3 d6 14. Bxf6
Bxf6 15. Raf1 Nd7 16. Nd5 Rg8 (16... Ke8 17. Re3+ (17. Nxf6+ Nxf6 18. Rxf6 h5
(18... b5 19. Rf7 Kd8 20. R1f6)19. Rf7 Kd8 20. R1f6)17... Kd8 18. Nxf6 a5) 17.
Nxf6 Nxf6 18. Rxf6+ Ke8 19. g3 Rg7 20. Rf8+ Ke7 21. Rh8 Kd7 22. Rff8 c5 23. dxc5 * with chances fr draw.
  

ICCF IM
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
Reply #4 - 06/03/10 at 16:46:46
Post Tools
@Dragonslayer

Regarding the variation 8.Bxf7, Kxf7 9.d4,Qf5!
Iso 10.Qe2 I think you mean 10.Bxf4,Nf6 11.Qe2 (because 10.Qe2,Bh6 looks -/+ to me).

Incidentally, McDonald in his KG-book, claimed ...Qf5 as his own 'invention'. And former ChessPub author Paul Motwani was duped into believing him, and praising his analytic work in his annotations to one of the KG games.  Huh


10.Bxf4,Nf6 11.Qe2 (10.Qe2,Bh6!? -/+)
Actually white has build up a very decent score in this variation. But this is mainly Black often went wrong at the next move.
Black has:
a) 11....Qe6 (dubious)
b) 11....d6 ( better for Black)
c) 11....Qg6! best imho.

a)11....Qe6 12.Be5,Bg7 13.Nc3,Rf8
a1) 14.Ne4,Kg8 15.Bxf6,Bxf6 16.Rxf6 with compensation (Venus-Witmaack, 2007)
a2) 14.Nd5! (best) Qxd5 15.Bxf6,Bxf6 16.Rxf6,Kxf6 17.Rf1+ , Kg6 18.Rxf8 and white has sufficient compensation after both 18...Qe6 and 18...Qxd4.
The latter was played in Gysi-Leisebein, 1997.
Leisebein's annotation shows that the position offers equal chances.
Even though from a theoretical point of view the ...Qe6 offers equal chances, black has lost a number of games by taking to many risks defending for a win.

c) 11...Qg6! (best) 12.Be5,Be7 13.Nc3,d6! 14.Bxf6,Bxf6
15.Nd5,Bf5 -/+ (Leisebein-Gysi, corr., 1998).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
Reply #3 - 06/03/10 at 13:58:15
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 06/03/10 at 10:30:40:
The diagrammed position, which arises after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf3 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 gxf3 6.Qxf3 Qf6 7.e5 Qxe5 8.Bxf7+ has been known as lost for White since at least 1986, when Bücker published his book on the KG.

8...Kxf7 9.d4 Qf5! Showalter-Taubenhaus, New York 1889.


And still people kept playing it. And some of them put their money on 10.Qe2 (iso 10.g4). As far as I know this move did not score well in Thomas Stock' thematic tournaments. See Kaissiber for the details.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Koji
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline



Posts: 33
Joined: 08/25/09
Re: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
Reply #2 - 06/03/10 at 13:19:06
Post Tools
Quote:
{White resigns. Black rejects
resignation.}


o.o

That sounds sadistic to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
Reply #1 - 06/03/10 at 10:30:40
Post Tools
The diagrammed position, which arises after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf3 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0-0 gxf3 6.Qxf3 Qf6 7.e5 Qxe5 8.Bxf7+ has been known as lost for White since at least 1986, when Bücker published his book on the KG.

8...Kxf7 9.d4 Qf5! Showalter-Taubenhaus, New York 1889.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Master Om
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 187
Joined: 02/20/10
C37: Double Muzio/Muzio Polerio Gambit refuted ?
06/03/10 at 03:37:42
Post Tools
I have weakness towards Kings Gambit since i have played chess. recently in my friendly corrrespondence game i had black against muzio and i managed to draw the game and it was a tough game. Here is the Game.
[Event "Muzio Gambit (A) 6.Qxf3 Qf6 III"]
[Site "Rybka Forum"]
[Date "2010.01.04 "]
[Round "1"]
[White "Vytron"]
[Black "omprakash"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C25"]
[Opening "Vienna"]
[Variation "Hamppe-Muzio, Dubois Variation"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. d3 Bh6
8. Nc3 Ne7 9. Bxf4 Bxf4 10. Qxf4 Qxf4 11. Rxf4 Nbc6 12. Raf1 Nd4 13. Bxf7+
Kd8 14. R1f2 a5 15. Bh5 Ne6 16. Rf6 a4 17. d4 Ra5 18. d5 c6 19. Bf7 Ng7 20.
a3 Ne8 21. Rh6 cxd5 22. exd5 Ra6 23. Rh4 Nc7 24. h3 b5 25. Rd4 d6 26. Rh4
Bd7 27. g4 Rb6 28. Rh6 Rf8 29. Ne4 b4 30. Rff6 bxa3 31. bxa3 Rb1+ 32. Kf2
Rc1 33. Rxh7 Rxc2+ 34. Ke1 Rc4 35. Nxd6 Ncxd5 36. Rf3 Rf4 37. Bxd5 Nxd5 38.
Rxf4 Nxf4 39. Nf7+ Kc8 40. Kd2 Ng6 41. Rg7 {Draw agreed.2010.05.21}

My friend vytron won very good games as white and black.
Here is the Game.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. d3 Bc5+ 8. Kh1 Nc6 9. Nc3 Ne5 10. Qh5 Bd6 11. Bxf4 Qg6 12. Qh4 Nxc4 13. Nb5 c6 14. Nxd6+ Nxd6 15. Be5 Nxe4 16. Rae1 Ng5 17. Bxh8+ Ne6 18. Rf3 Qh6 19. Qf2 Qf8 20. Rf1 Ne7 21. Be5 f5 22. g4 Ng5 23. Re3 f4 24. Qxf4 Qxf4 25. Bxf4 Ne6 26. Bd6 c5 27. Rh3 b6 28. Rxh7 Bb7+ 29. Kg1 Ng8 30. Rh8 O-O-O 31. h4 c4 32. dxc4 Be4 33. Rf2 Kb7 34. h5 Rc8 35. b3 Ng5 36. Kf1 Ne6 37. Ba3 Kc7 38. Bb2 Ng5 39. Bc1 Ne6 40. g5 Rd8 41. Bf4+ Kc8 42. Bd6 Kb7 43. g6 Rc8 44. Be5 Rc5 45. Rxg8 Rxe5 46. h6 Rh5 47. g7 Rxh6 48. Rb8+ Kxb8 49. g8=Q+ Kb7 50. b4 a6 51. a4 Rh1+ 52. Ke2 {Black resigns.} 1-0

[Event "Muzio Gambit (A) 6.Qxf3 Qf6 II"]
[Site "Rybka Forum"]
[Date "2009.11.22"]
[Round "5"]
[White "deka"]
[Black "Vytron"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "C37"]
[Opening "KGA]
[Variation "Muzio Gambit, Holloway Defence"]

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. d3 Nc6
8. Bxf4 d6 9. Nc3 Qg7 10. Nd5 Kd8 11. Qh5 f6 12. Qh4 Ne5 13. Be3 c6 14. Nf4
Qe7 15. Qe1 Nxc4 16. dxc4 Nh6 17. Rd1 Bg4 18. Bd4 Bxd1 19. Nd5 cxd5 20.
Bxf6 Bg4 21. exd5 Qxf6 22. Rxf6 Rc8 23. Qh4 Kc7 24. Rxh6 Bxh6 25. Qxh6 Rcg8
26. h3 Bd7 27. Qe3 Rg6 28. g4 b6 29. b4 Re8 30. Qa3 Kb7 31. c5 dxc5 32.
bxc5 bxc5 33. Qxc5 Rb6 34. Kf2 Rc8 35. Qe7 Rxc2+ 36. Kg3 Rc3+ 37. Kh4 Kc8
38. Qxh7 Kc7 39. Qe4 Rh6+ 40. Kg5 Rcxh3 41. a4 Rd6 42. Qd4 Kd8 43. Qc5 Rhh6
44. Kf4 Rhf6+ 45. Ke5 Ra6 46. a5 Bxg4 47. Qb4 Rf5+ {White resigns. Black rejects
resignation.} 48. Ke4 Rf7 49. Qb8+ Bc8 50. Qh2 Re7+ 51. Kd4
Rd7 52. Qg3 Rad6 53. Qg5+ Kc7 54. Qf5 Bb7 55. Qf4 Kc8 56. Qf8+ Rd8 57. Qf7
Rxd5+ 58. Kc3 Rxa5 59. Qf2 Rad5 60. Qxa7 R8d7 {White resigns.2010.01.30}
0-1

So i started to play as white and played the Double Muzio Gambit.
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*.
Now after analysis i am not getting even a draw in this line.Then Is it Refuted ? Should I post the Analysis ?
« Last Edit: 07/24/11 at 20:18:51 by Smyslov_Fan »  

ICCF IM
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 [3] 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo