Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined (Read 11773 times)
VitolinishBoom
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #13 - 11/10/10 at 01:38:19
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Thanks both Markovich and LeeRoth; I appreciate the advice, and I won't be a knucklehead and ignore it. 

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(3)  But you must always be vigilant.  You can't just play e3-e4 automatically and assume it will win.  In general, if, after 1.e4 dxe4 2.fxe4, Black can land a piece on g4, you've probably mis-timed the break.    


Yes, I assumed it'd win! Blimey. Kidding aside, thanks also for the recommendation of the Cox book; I've been telling myself I need to pick that up for a while.
  
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #12 - 11/08/10 at 18:26:27
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VitolinshBoom, 

Welcome to the forum.  I agree with Markovich's advice and would recommend that you stick with   the Nge2/f3 exchange variation.  

The trick, as you note, is in timing the e4 advance.  So don't get discouraged, it just takes practice to get a good feel for it.  A few pointers:  

(1) Before you think about e3-d4, you generally want to have your pieces developed first, including the Ra1.  It may seem like e1 is the most natural place for this rook, but it's often better on d1 because in order to advance e3-e4, you have to make sure d4 is adequately protected.

(2) The sometimes exception is when Black plays ..Bd6 and even ..Qc7.  Then you can sometimes get e3-e4 in sooner because you threaten e4-e5 forking Bd6 and Nf6 and because Black's moves have reduced the pressure against d4.

(3)  But you must always be vigilant.  You can't just play e3-e4 automatically and assume it will win.  In general, if, after 1.e4 dxe4 2.fxe4, Black can land a piece on g4, you've probably mis-timed the break.    

(4)  The e3-e4 break is your big goal, but it doesn't by itself decide the game or always lead to a mating attack.  You still have to play good chess to win, and you still have to be careful of Black's counterplay.

(5)  Sometimes you don't get the e3-e4 break in until the late middlegame or endgame.  But it's good then too.  Control of the center gives White the better ending.  So its OK to be patient.

(6)  It's of course important to watch the e3 pawn and also Black's c5 break.  If Black plays ..h6, kicking the Bishop to h4, then a subsequent Bh4-f2 helps with both these things.     

John Cox has a nice discussion of this variation in his Starting Out 1.d4 book.  Highly recommended, and easier to grasp than Schandorff.   
  
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #11 - 11/08/10 at 17:02:05
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VitolinishBoom wrote on 11/08/10 at 04:08:03:
Hello,

This is my first post, and I know you guys were mostly addressing this back in August, but I'm pleased I found this thread as I was thinking the same thing all weekend. I've been using the Botvinnik setup suggested by Schandorff, but because I'm only about 1700, I find the positional nuances a bit tough to grasp. (I don't know how many times I've prematurely gone for the e4 break only to find I'm losing a center pawn, or worse, and I hate to admit it, neglecting to protect the e3 pawn before it gets there!)  Embarrassed

So I decided I need to try out the Nf3 variations instead.  Great to see the Davies column, and I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but Yermolinsky outlines the plans of the Nf3, with an early h3 line in his book The Road to Chess Improvement.


Welcome to the forum.  My advice to a 1700 player would be that he should just follow Schandorff and not twist his guts over his repertoire.  In general there's too much repertoire-angst in this forum.  I doubt that if you'd had Schandorff's book in your hands and been allowed to consult it, you would've fouled up your openings, so just book up better.  If you can't figure out where you went wrong in given cases, post the game here and I imagine someone will be willing to give you a little free advice.  Analogously if at some places, you can't make sense of Schandorff.

I opine that there aren't many positional nuances in Schandorff; most of what he recommends is blood-and-guts attacking chess, which is just what a 1700 player should be playing, not nuanced QG systems with Bf4 and h3.
  

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VitolinishBoom
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #10 - 11/08/10 at 04:08:03
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Hello,

This is my first post, and I know you guys were mostly addressing this back in August, but I'm pleased I found this thread as I was thinking the same thing all weekend. I've been using the Botvinnik setup suggested by Schandorff, but because I'm only about 1700, I find the positional nuances a bit tough to grasp. (I don't know how many times I've prematurely gone for the e4 break only to find I'm losing a center pawn, or worse, and I hate to admit it, neglecting to protect the e3 pawn before it gets there!)  Embarrassed

So I decided I need to try out the Nf3 variations instead.  Great to see the Davies column, and I'm not sure if anyone mentioned it, but Yermolinsky outlines the plans of the Nf3, with an early h3 line in his book The Road to Chess Improvement.
  
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #9 - 09/01/10 at 08:23:21
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There is also a good older book by Pedersen and Burgess called The Queen's Gambit for the Attacking Player that might be a bit less intimidating than Schandorff, giving a White repertoire containing many of the ideas mentioned above. The authors offer White a choice of aggressive systems--whole alternative chapters, not only moves--in all the major cases.  Both the exchange variation and the Nc3 with Nf3 lines with opposite-side castling are covered against the normal QGD, for example. The book is no less generous with lines against the Slav and Semi-Slav. I don't believe it covers 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7 5.g4.
  
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #8 - 09/01/10 at 06:53:56
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TN wrote on 08/11/10 at 06:52:25:
If you want to play the most aggressive lines of the Exchange Variation, then 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nf3 Re8 10.0-0-0 Nf8 11.h3 is a logical repertoire choice.

After 11...a5 and 12...a4 Black's play looks more dynamic to me than White's. Any idea how this should be countered?
  

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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #7 - 08/11/10 at 17:43:53
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Is this a coincidence? Nigel Davies has a new column out on exactly the g4 plans in the QG Exchange:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/motifs11.pdf
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #6 - 08/11/10 at 17:20:08
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I don't remember which IM, but an IM here pointed out the possible move order 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Be7 and instead of 4.Bf4, 4.Qc2, which will most likely transpose to the Modern Exchange!

The most challenging way for Black to play may be 4...Nc6!?
  
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #5 - 08/11/10 at 17:04:54
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"Outside of the Exchange, I'd be tempted by 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 (which can also be reached by several other move orders with Nf3 before Nc3), meeting 4...Be7 with 5.g4!?, 4...Bb4 with 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4, 4...Nbd7 with 5.e3 Be7 6.g4, 4...c5 with 5.cd5 Nd5 6.e4 Nc3 7.bc3, 4...dc4 with 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4 and 4...c6 with 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4."

I might give this a try.  Where can I get theory on 4...Be7 5. g4 and 4...Nbd7 5. e3 Be7 6. g4?
  
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #4 - 08/11/10 at 13:34:04
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TN wrote on 08/11/10 at 06:52:25:
If you want to play the most aggressive lines of the Exchange Variation, then 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nf3 Re8 10.0-0-0 Nf8 11.h3 is a logical repertoire choice. 


This line was one of the three (!) covered for White in Chris Ward's "Play the Queen's Gambit". I recommend the book (or e-book) as a good starting point for the line. The other two lines covered are the similarly aggressive Nge2 with 0-0-0 intending h3 and g4, and the much calmer Nge2 with 0-0, Rb1 and a minority attack. Though it's close to a "Starting Out" book, it's refreshing to see something other than the standard Nge2/f3/0-0 recommended for once.

Ward chooses quieter lines against 3...Be7, so for agressive g4-based lines against that, Schandorff is the man.

As an aside I found the coverage of the 3...Be7 Exchange on Kasparov's Queen's Gambit DVD very instructive. He discusses many of the same lines as Schandorff.
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #3 - 08/11/10 at 12:40:29
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You're right - I was just using that move order as a means of reaching the Exchange, not as a recommended move order.

After 3.Nc3, I've faced 3...Nf6 much more frequently than 3...Be7. Personally I like 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bf4 c6 6.e3 Bf5 7.g4 for White based on Schandorff's analysis, but White can also consider 4.Nf3 as Black has little better than 4...Nf6 transposing to 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 Be7.

Also, the Nge2/0-0 Exchange Variation is quite dynamic as White ambitiously prepares to seize control of the centre with e4, but it's rare for either side to start an attack on the opponent's king before the late middlegame.
  

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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #2 - 08/11/10 at 09:10:24
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TN wrote on 08/11/10 at 06:52:25:
If you want to play the most aggressive lines of the Exchange Variation, then 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nf3 Re8 10.0-0-0 Nf8 11.h3 is a logical repertoire choice. 

Outside of the Exchange, I'd be tempted by 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 (which can also be reached by several other move orders with Nf3 before Nc3), meeting 4...Be7 with 5.g4!?, 4...Bb4 with 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4, 4...Nbd7 with 5.e3 Be7 6.g4, 4...c5 with 5.cd5 Nd5 6.e4 Nc3 7.bc3, 4...dc4 with 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4 and 4...c6 with 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4.


The purpose of the 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 move order is to avoid the exchange variation with the knight on f6! Given the current state of the theory people very rarely play 3. ... d5?! and most of people opt for NID: 3. ... Bb4

If (s)he is playing the exchange variation the line (s)he would encounter most is: 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4

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Re: Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
Reply #1 - 08/11/10 at 06:52:25
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If you want to play the most aggressive lines of the Exchange Variation, then 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.cd5 ed5 5.Bg5 c6 6.Qc2 Be7 7.e3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 0-0 9.Nf3 Re8 10.0-0-0 Nf8 11.h3 is a logical repertoire choice. 

Outside of the Exchange, I'd be tempted by 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Nf3 (which can also be reached by several other move orders with Nf3 before Nc3), meeting 4...Be7 with 5.g4!?, 4...Bb4 with 5.Bg5 dc4 6.e4, 4...Nbd7 with 5.e3 Be7 6.g4, 4...c5 with 5.cd5 Nd5 6.e4 Nc3 7.bc3, 4...dc4 with 5.e4 Bb4 6.Bc4 and 4...c6 with 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4.
  

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Dynamic Queen's Gambit Declined
08/11/10 at 05:38:25
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I am looking for something really dynamic and aggressive to play from the white side of the Queen's Gambit Declined, namely the aggressive lines of the exchange variation.  I'm thinking about those lines where white uses the plans of Ne5+f4+kingside pawn storm, 0-0-0 and kingside pawn storm, or an early g4.  Obviously these kind of tend to go hand in hand.  What are the plans for white, what are typical ideas?  When is it okay and when is it not okay to use these plans?  Would it be possible to design an anti-QGD repertoire that always involves attacking the kingside?  Also, what is a good source for information?  There aren't really any books since they all try to cover the entire Queen's Gambit Declined complex and give maybe a couple pages on 0-0-0, if one is lucky two games, and maybe an in-passing mention of the possibility of g4 in some lines (for example Rizzitano's book gives one game with an early g4 and one game with 0-0-0 and a kingside attack).
  
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