Normal Topic C18: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or ! (Read 6334 times)
dom
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #8 - 10/29/10 at 17:11:36
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@Moreno : If I compared my "pal" idea with your kid's idea, it is only because he liked to close early center with c4...no more....

If you believe I cannot assume a kid (yours or another) can have an interesting idea about one chess position, I am sorry, but it's not the case....the truth is I prefer everybody gives his assessment of moves with some arguments  in chess language.
  

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Keano
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #7 - 10/29/10 at 14:21:57
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Yes I saw a lot of people were quick to jump on the band-wagon and condemn the move. Its something goes on a lot in this forum - if something is not according to the "established book theory" then it can't be good some way or another. The Knight often goes to g6 in a lot of French lines, and its clear it deserves further investigation - Moskalenko is especially good at ignoring the conventional myths provided by books and digging closer to the what he believes is the truth. A lot of people on this forum are not open to new ideas because their books say something is "=" or "+=" and they start relying too heavily on books instead of digging out their own personal theory.
  
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Luis Moreno
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #6 - 10/27/10 at 21:25:50
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Thanks Keano for giving the benefit of doubt to my kid's idea, obviously she is only 13 and most probably her analysis would have some holes, it is not like your VMC friend DOM, it is not the same situation because you are comparing a kid that is improving and practices chess in the high level competition with your pal who probably is happy playing the weekend's tournaments, it is a different approach, obviously she never played that line in official tournaments because her attitude to chess is different than me for example, but her idea was not that bad as some of you point out, read the following:
Another defence by
the knight, 7...Ng6, was one of
several barricade methods à la Petrosian. I
don’t know if it is playable, but a clear refutation is yet to be found: 8.h4!? h5! 9.Qg3
Qa5!? (un fortunately the idea 9...b6? is not
play able be cause of 10.Bd3!) 10.Bd2 Nc6
11.Bd3 Nce7 12.dxc5! (12.Nf3 c4!=)  12...Nf5!N ( 12...Qxc5 13.Nf3+= was
seen in Liberzon- Petrosian, Moscow 1964)
13.Bxf5! exf5
This could be the new key position of this
line. Black is still very solid here.

VIKTOR MOSKALENKO IN HIS NEW BOOK WONDERFUL WINAWER
Maybe some of you because I said that it was my kid's idea took that very light and even some like DOM went off the point comparing my daughter's idea with his club pal, but now that Moskalenko thinks that the line is solid for black many of you would have a different approach to this line, or even better if the former world champion Petrossian would tell you that this line is playable I do not think DOM would compare Petrossian's idea with his VMC pal.
Finally, my kids coach was somewhat impressed with the line and he analyzed that for more than one week, for him the plan for white was not as easy as some of you thought, but after week he found a refutation which involves an early f4, I do not remember well the line that he showed me but I will ask him to show me that refutation again and I will let you know over the weekend.
  
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Keano
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #5 - 08/31/10 at 09:10:49
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Your kid is obviously very talented. In that particular position though the ...Ng6 idea doesn't have a good reputation but I wouldn't give up on it because of that.

The very respectable line with ...Ng6 you might like to look at is 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 Ne7!? 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 b6! 7. Qg4 Ng6 8. h4
h5 9. Qg3 Ba6 when Black has been doing decently with counterplay on the queenside and White squares.
  
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MartinC
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #4 - 08/31/10 at 08:53:35
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7 .. Nf5 perhaps a better implementation of much the same idea. As I remember thats meant to be more or less acceptable, although not at all fashionable for whatever reason(s).
  
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dom
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #3 - 08/28/10 at 17:12:09
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7...Ng6?!  gives square most passive for the knight compared to other lines. 

Highly ironic vs h4...but that's the good move for White: 

8.h4! h5 9.Qg3 c4 (9...Qa5 10.Bd2 c4 11.a4 Bd7 12.Nh3 and 12....Bxa4?! 13.Ng5 ; 9...Nc6 10.Bd3 Nce7 11.Ne2 Qa5 - 11..c4 12.Bxg6 Nxg6 13.Nf4 - 12.oo Qa4 13.Bg5 +/-) 10.Nh3 (10.Ne2 Qa5 11.Bd2 Qa4) with the idea Nf4 and the dubious pawn winning Qxh4 gives Black one bad position
 
Funnily I had same debate with one player my chess club about 6...c4  "VMC variation" (VMC is his nickname)...he argued long time (maybe till now ?!) that it is a good move for Black (reasons are same: Black is happy to close center and bishop f1 cannot reach his natural post on d3)...but trying to argue with him was hopeless . 

7.Qg4 Qa5 8.Bd2 g6 (arg...dark squares are lost but it doesnt matter ... sic  Cheesy ) 9.h4 h5 10.Qf3 Qa4 11.Qd1 Nc6 12.Nh3 Bd7 13.Ng5 Nce7 14.Qc1 Ljubojevic-Naranja,Manille 1974 (Jovicic)  ... instructive for the Black unaware player when first seeing the lost tempi by White queen and remarking only at the end  that the weakness still remain for him (squares and king)
  

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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #2 - 08/28/10 at 12:28:05
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1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Ng6 8. h4
h5 9. Qg3 c4 10. Ne2 Nc6 11. Bg5 Qa5 12. Qe3 Nce7 13. Ng3 Bd7 14. Be2 O-O-O 15.
Nxh5
looks quite convincing for white.

  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
Reply #1 - 08/28/10 at 08:18:55
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Just off the top of my head how is Black going to meet the super-crude plan of Be2 and Qg5 attacking the h-pawn? OK Black can play ...Qd8 to discourage Qg5, but he's obviously not going to fulfil all his strategic aims ...
« Last Edit: 08/28/10 at 11:49:29 by Michael Ayton »  
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Luis Moreno
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C18: Winawer 7)Qg4, Ng6!? or ? or !
08/27/10 at 20:15:57
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Hello, as I told you my kids practice chess and my daughter is a Frenchie as me, the other day I was showing her the possibilities in the Winawer besides the poisining pawn variation, as showing her 7)..., 0-0; 7)...,Kf8 even 7)...,g6 and suddenly she said "Dad I like 7)..., Ng6 ", my first reaction was to tell her that her option is bad and she should forget about it, but I remembered a friend of mine who told me not to break my kid's creativity, so I decided to show her that the variation was not good with concrete analysis, so I told her that the knight will be in problems after 8)h4, she answered 8)...,h5 then I went 9)Qg3 and she answered 9)...,c4 ; then I realized her point, she said that the light square white bishop never will reach the square d3, and that if 7)...Kf8 or 7)...g6 are playable then 7)...Ng6 must be playable as well. So we start researching in the database and we found a game played by Petrosian!! in the sixties which lost after: 1)e4,e6; 2)d4,d5; 3)Nc3,Bb4; 4)e5,c5; 5)a3,Bc3; 6)bc,Ne7; 7)Qg4,Ng6!?; 8)h4,h5; 9)Qg3,Qa5!?; 10)Bd2,Nc6; 11)Bd3,Nce7; 12)dc5,Qc5; 13)Nf3,Bd7; 14)00,Bb5; 15)Be3 1-0
We think (me and my daughter) that is very important not to allow Bd3, so after 10)Bd2 Petrosian should have played 10)...c4 and then follow the same plan Nc6 -e7; get the black light square bishop to a4 aiming towards the weak c2 pawn and move the queen back to the kingside.
This variation I played against FRITZ12 which beat me but I think I came out of the opening well, I use this variation in blitz games with a plus score so far.
What do you think about this line?? Is there any work regarding 7)...Ng6!?; please let me know your thoughts regarding this line which I am about to use it in FIDE rated tournaments soon.

Thanks in advance for your answers.
« Last Edit: 07/21/11 at 19:32:59 by dom »  
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